To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

Blah blah blah, you know naff all, This week I've had 134 people doing electrical work for me. The margin just 'sitting back' and raking it in isn't what you think.
'You could train as a sparky' 3 years minimum to be shit, takes about 7-8 years to be genuinely good from learned experience. Funnily enough I've had all sorts of self financed career change types approach for opportunities. Not one of them could make the grade because it's an experience job that you can't just buy your way into.
On the books (employed) paid by day/month/year electricians are on as low as 27k to 40k as a good earn. House bashing on site the best are likely to get £1.8k/week absolute tops more likely £800- £1200/week. There's plenty of clueless Muppets plying their trade in the domestic market whose clients are effectively paying for these idiots to gain the required experience- but that's another issue.
'Get involved in projects'
'possibly head up a commercial team' a lot of electrical contracts managers have come through this route but, guess what, they're a long way from earning superstar money.
Conjour up a successful SME out of the ether.
You could do all of those, just like you could take a shit in a bear's cave.
You were a come lately to the truck driving game and clearly don't know that as well as you think, spent a few months hanging around s building site and think you know all that too.
The margins for these mythical SMEs on all site work are very tight and if you don't have an 'in' you can't just can't rock up Yosser Hughes style saying "I can do that"

I can't decide if you're a Walter Mitty type making stuff up or just getting frustrated at the thought that some people can accomplish what you did in less than 25 years.

It sounds like you're underpaying your sparkies which might be indicative of you not having negotiated a competitive enough margin. Race to the bottom and all that. I used to work for an m&e installation company 15 years ago who did refrigeration installs for Tesco amongst other things. The sparkies were on £41k.

But I digress. I stand by my point that it's madness to talk about getting more wc people into uni when we need so many drivers. A few grand for licenses is much less than £30k for a degree. I already managed get two of my driver's mates to apply for the company scheme at my previous employer where they got their Class 2 license. They went from close to minimum wage to £32k within a matter on months and took to the job better than I did coming from an office background because they already knew most of the runs and had spent a few years out with the drivers.

No they don't get all the benefits of a chartered accountant but £32k isn't a bad salary in your early 20s when not having any meaningful qualifications. The current pay negotiations with the union will likely see their net salary approaching £40k as they're bringing the newer drivers in line with those on the older better paid contracts.

There are likely loads of young lads drifting along in shit jobs who just need a nudge in the right direction. Some obv don't really give a shit and my other two driver's mates were only really interested in smoking bud, to be fair, but I do think there are plenty of lads out there that would benefit from and be conducive to these types of schemes.

And I'm not new to this either, only to the non office based side.

I was a BDM for a big m&e contractor 15 years ago. Preventative/reactive maintenance of both equipment and building fabric, installs, etc. Also managed FM bids for five years before moving into the recycling/waste management sector for three years in an operational role.

@3luckystars

My BIL works hard labour, mainly outside, earns good money but he is 50 now and it is physically killing him. He has loads of injuries and aches and pains. He should have really started a company and contracted the work out at this stage but he is self employed and has no holidays sick pay or time off. He won’t be able to keep doing this until 60+ . He loves the job though and is very good at it, I think an office job would have mentally killed him.

Snap. Got a relative who is SE trade. Loves the job but his knees are knackered from kneeling all the time. Back, shoulders and wrists are buggered from lifting. Has horrendous tinnitus and hearing loss from drilling and power tools. He's 45 now and says he'll be lucky to manage another 5 years the way he is now.

The jobs can no doubt be hard on the body but much of it is also preventable. Using power tools without ear protection is stupid but I see it every day. Same with people who kneel all day on hard floors but choose not to wear knee pads (most work trousers even have the sleeve for them to be inserted).

Aren't these jobs just dominated by men though. I live next to a train station and on occasion vans of Railway workers arrive for an all night shift. I haven't seen one woman all the while I've lived here which is about 5 years. Personally, I prefer a balance, like I get in the office I work in. Plus my job is concerned with a certain law so I find it mentally stimulating. It is not an admin job though it is purely advisory so I don't have to do repetitive tasks like data entry.

Quite a few of my friends are tradespeople and a few of them are middle-class. Tending to be the ones that went off the rails, never made it to uni and discovered a love for carpentry, plumbing and garden builds. They can be creative, complex and have potentital to specialise. Most if them have upped their income by a third since covid and have stopped answering the phone as they have more work than they can handle. They are fitter and generally happier than our mates that work in an office.

Ordinary admin staff getting that? Or do you mean people with more complex admin type roles?

I think it's possible if home counties are on London style wages. Plenty of PAs in London are earning into the £30ks.

@Goldenbear two of my female friends are plumbers and one a plasterer! They are on 50k plus.

@Ugzbugz

I think I would rather lay tarmac than do absolute pointless nonsical corporate bullshit where everyone seems depressed and anxious.

Pretty much how I felt, but I'm admittedly a borderline misanthrope. Although I think years of office bullshit made me that way.

I really like that I don't have to put on my office persona in my current job. Tbh, I found it to be sector specific too. Hated professional services and legal companies. Liked security providers as lots of ex police/military and a much less pc vibe.

I hate all the nonsense around pronouns and political correctness which is becoming ever more present in the corporate world.

To go back to the original question, don't discount the issues of change, and social inertia. It wasn't that long ago that office jobs, requiring educated skills, were paid much more than labouring jobs, and education has been held up as the way for working class people to progress themselves for the last 150 years. It's no longer true, thanks to various economic and social pressures, but those of us who were educated before the WWW are still here. In the future no doubt there will be many more of the lower middle classes, at least, taking up practical jobs.

Physical roles have a higher rate of impact on physical health so that by the mid 50s many people with acquired disability and ill health who have to retire early have worked in physical Labour and as a consequence have shorter life expectancy. So if you smooth those earnings over a 10 year shorter working life abd higher risk if disability it's not looking so attractive. So jobs like roofing, scaffolding, tarmacing etc are put you at risk of being worn out, with higher levels of physical
Impairment, less income and poor life expectancy.

Just watch 24 hours in A&E and you'I'll see the risks.

@PieMistee

Quite a few of my friends are tradespeople and a few of them are middle-class. Tending to be the ones that went off the rails, never made it to uni and discovered a love for carpentry, plumbing and garden builds. They can be creative, complex and have potentital to specialise. Most if them have upped their income by a third since covid and have stopped answering the phone as they have more work than they can handle. They are fitter and generally happier than our mates that work in an office.

Sounds a bit like me tbh.

Had a middle class upbringing but never felt very at home with all the Tarquins and Jemimas. Probably because my old man is as working class as they come and nothing like the parents of most of my classmates.

Did well academically at first but lost interest and defo went off the rails. Was a pretty challenging kid tbh. Only things I really enjoyed were thai boxing and getting wasted until at least my mid 20s.

You do understand how margins work?
I'm under paying them because I didn't negotiate s competitive enough margin?

I gave you the exact pay range of what my site house bashing electricians are earning. I'll tell the grafters earning over £1500/week that I didn't negotiate a big enough margin to pay them properly.
Fucking clown.

There's a Walter Mitty alright, M&E big bollox,superstar lorry driver and now delivering a bit of sand,cement and water to as many as 8 sites a day thinks she knows construction inside out

I worked for m&e Tesco blah blah my sparks earnt £41k 15 years ago, for after hours away from home shit work, 10 seconds on Total to find a contracts manager for a similar venture only earning upto £350/day top
www.totaljobs.com/job/contracts-manager/macdonald-company-job95444706

And latest commercial sparks jobs on Totaljobs
www.totaljobs.com/jobs/electrician-commercial?q=Electrician+(Commercial) but all your guys were superstar £41k earners 15 years ago

Jenny come lately knows best

@Bouledeneige

Physical roles have a higher rate of impact on physical health so that by the mid 50s many people with acquired disability and ill health who have to retire early have worked in physical Labour and as a consequence have shorter life expectancy. So if you smooth those earnings over a 10 year shorter working life abd higher risk if disability it's not looking so attractive. So jobs like roofing, scaffolding, tarmacing etc are put you at risk of being worn out, with higher levels of physical Impairment, less income and poor life expectancy.

Just watch 24 hours in A&E and you'I'll see the risks.

Yes I understand this, but as I keep saying I wasn't just talking about the physical graft jobs. You also need batchers to mix the product and plant maintenance people, operation managers, etc.

The construction sector isn't just comprised of men digging holes.

Yes, I can imagine with trades like that but what about jobs like highway workers- working on motorways all through the night sounds stressful, noisy and just not very pleasant.

@DeepaBeesKit

Also to get 47k off 180 per day you're assuming working 5 days a week 52 weeks a year.

A professional accountant will often get 6 weeks paid leave per year, can work some days from home so incurring less travel costs, is likely to have decent pension contributions worth another 10% or so of salary.

So your contractor surfacer is down to 41,400 p.a. and that's assuming they've got work every single day of the year, 46 weeks a year.

Knock off 15% because they need to contribute to their own pension - no one else is. 6k off. Down to 35k.

Knock off petrol costs driving to sites, maybe some tools & other gear, could easily be another 2-3k.

Suddenly it's really not that appealing compared to my job (chartered accountant, london role). I work primarily from home, 7h a day, on 92k basic, bonuses etc on top, lots of nice benefits, healthcare etc, good pension, generous maternity pay.

You’ve also missed liability insurance, cost of leasing vehicles, insurance for equipment, costs for renting somewhere to keep the vehicle and equipment, pay for subbies when you need more than one pair of hands, etc etc

Anyway, we've been side tracked, your original point was valid, it was your perfect world wage expectations, ease of transfer from 1 world to the other into unrealistic wages where the issues have arisen.

@Watchingyou2sleezes

You do understand how margins work? I'm under paying them because I didn't negotiate s competitive enough margin?

I gave you the exact pay range of what my site house bashing electricians are earning. I'll tell the grafters earning over £1500/week that I didn't negotiate a big enough margin to pay them properly.
Fucking clown.

There's a Walter Mitty alright, M&E big bollox,superstar lorry driver and now delivering a bit of sand,cement and water to as many as 8 sites a day thinks she knows construction inside out

I worked for m&e Tesco blah blah my sparks earnt £41k 15 years ago, for after hours away from home shit work, 10 seconds on Total to find a contracts manager for a similar venture only earning upto £350/day top
www.totaljobs.com/job/contracts-manager/macdonald-company-job95444706

And latest commercial sparks jobs on Totaljobs
www.totaljobs.com/jobs/electrician-commercial?q=Electrician+(Commercial) but all your guys were superstar £41k earners 15 years ago

Jenny come lately knows best

A nerve has clearly been touched.

You obv didn't read the link you posted as it confirms that £41k is indeed possible. It definitely doesn't Mitty-gate my statement like you hoped.

Well, first off many working class jobs are in fact office jobs. So there isn’t really a disparity of tarmac layer on 47k while a “middle class” office worker is on 35k. They’re both working class inmho. Working at a desk on a computer all day is usually the modern day version of working in a factory. It’s still working class.

Secondly, this story has me a bit worried
One of our groundwork contractors is only about 30 and he's absolutely raking it in - just bought a car costing close to £200k. Not even the most intellectual guy. Has loads of Polish guys grafting for him and just gets the job done. No 'corporate strategy', KPIs, management meetings, etc.

I count 5 red flags indicating modern day slavery going on here...

Yanbu. It’s total snobbery.
I do an unskillled job-although it’s not manual it’s mainly outdoors, fairly active and pays well. I will not be pushing either 11+ or uni on my DC if they aren’t up for it. I see a lot of snobbery amongst peers - their kid has to go to uni but no-one is really sure why it’s just “you have to”.
A friend of mine is a hairdresser, loves her job and is never short of work. I see liking (or even tolerating!) your job as success.
Another mate works for Network Rail, excellent pension provision and they pay really well.

@KrispyKremeDream

The jobs can no doubt be hard on the body but much of it is also preventable. Using power tools without ear protection is stupid but I see it every day. Same with people who kneel all day on hard floors but choose not to wear knee pads (most work trousers even have the sleeve for them to be inserted).

OMG you are really are clueless giving replies such as this 🙄

If only these stupid people realised that using ear protection or knee pads will prevent the wear and tear on their body that using power tools and kneeling all day, for years, causes.

It sounds like you aren’t really cut out for corporate management OP, it’s a walk in the park compared to doing manual labour jobs!

Horses for courses and all that.

Only jobs in the public sector will offer 28 days holidays! You just wouldn't see that in the private sector.

But that is beside the point. OP, I agree with you there are some good salaries out there for manual work. Many a time have I waited in for builders who wouldn't turn up you wouldn't do that if you didn;t have a choice of jobs.

But ambitious people will find better opportunities in life, whatever their class.

@Watchingyou2sleezes

Anyway, we've been side tracked, your original point was valid, it was your perfect world wage expectations, ease of transfer from 1 world to the other into unrealistic wages where the issues have arisen.

Yes we have.

I'll admit I'm possibly a bit over enthusiastic atm having found a sector/job I really like, and likely it's not as simple as some make it look. But it's still a relatively simple operation compared to the FM bids/projects I used to be involved in which would be planned across a 3-5 year period with so many different cost and service streams and elaborate disaster recovery plans etc. Five bid managers on a single project and dozens of operational managers etc.

And now I look at my current employer who is just leasing trucks, finding drivers, and then subbing them out to other companies for a decent margin and barely dealing with them on a day to day basis. And then on the aggregates side just smashing out the mortar to the same sites day in and day out, many of which are going to be ongoing for a good few years. It's just mixed, put in a wagon and off it goes.

The building side obviously has a lot of skilled workers onboard but its just the same process again and again most times. Buy a block of old shitty houses, redevelop them and sell them for significantly more.

The level of resource is impressive but it's nowhere near the complexity of drafting the commercial strategy for managing a huge property portfolio, to include all the security, cleaning, maintenance, waste management, etc. I used to be in awe of the consultants who drafted these complex strategies with so many different elements, but when I look at my current company it seems much more straightforward.

Gosh. Working class folk in manual jobs earning more than the middle classes? Dear oh dear, can't have that, can we?