To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

Assuming earning 50k being a driver is easy just sitting driving while talking to mates and not physically demanding or stressful is insulting.

Well, it's exactly what I did, although for £40k. But an arctic driver could make £50k easy.

I never said it wasn't physically demanding, although my job was very different to an arctic driver. Driving down the motorway to an RDC and reversing onto a bay isn't physically demanding. Driving has it's stressful moments but nowhere close to the stress I had in a £35k corporate project management job.

@Badbadbunny

A lot of the "high paid" jobs you mention will be on a self employed basis, i.e. no holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, provide/pay your own tools/equipment/transport, and with the outside jobs, no pay when you can't work due to bad weather or suppliers not delivering the materials on time.

Contrast that to a cushy office job where you get your full pay whether there's work or not, whether it's bad weather or not, plus at least 28 days paid holidays, statutory sick/maternity pay, redundancy/notice, and compulsory employers pension contributions.

See the difference?

Completely agree with this. My Husband worked like this from leaving school, he's 57 now and physically shot. Hard manual work and all hours, no sick pay, self employed. Its been brutal. The money, yes, better than what it could have been, but he's suffering for it now. I'd certainly forfeit some of it now for a better work life balance and better health for him. I've heard of many who have struggled on until retirement, stopped then either fell very ill or died soon after.

Its very hard on you mentally and physically.

Are there really though? Lots of management jobs for tradesmen? I thought they were mainly self-employed so either an apprentice or their own boss? Are there really loads of management jobs where they get to sit on a chair and manage other people?

Well, most of the brickwork companies working for the big boys (Miller, Taylor Wimpey, etc) are contractors. Usually a load of young lads managed by a somewhat older gaffer. The gaffer doesn't usually sit on a chair all day. Most of the big newbuilds have multiple companies in there and they will be onsite for a good few years.

The more I read of the OP the more I'm seeing a Jenny come lately shite trumpet. Very little real world knowledge of either logistics or construction.

Well, it's exactly what I did, although for £40k. But an arctic driver could make £50k easy.* I never said it wasn't physically demanding, although my job was very different to an arctic driver. Driving down the motorway to an RDC and reversing onto a bay isn't physically demanding. Driving has it's stressful moments but nowhere close to the stress I had in a £35k corporate project management job.*

I earn £50k in a relatively easy corporate job, do I tell everyone they should work in an office because it's easy money? No, I know people couldnt just walk into my job, it's as much about luck as it is skill: timing, opportunity, location.

You sound like so many people I know in the military who get their licences and think they can walk into a £50k a year job because they have their licences, when they look into it they can't, because whilst it's possible it really isn't that common. Or they have to sell their soul working insane hours and tramping to get the promised figures. You're lucky, not average. I'm genuinely glad you earn that much, I think it's deserved, I think it's a difficult job and dangerous, but please stop making out it's the guaranteed jackpot. I know tens of people who would be thrilled to earn more than £35k a year truck driving, so please do list the categories and companies that pay these sums because I will happily pass them along, not everyone is knowingly avoiding it for "class" reasons.

@KrispyKremeDream

Are there really though? Lots of management jobs for tradesmen? I thought they were mainly self-employed so either an apprentice or their own boss? Are there really loads of management jobs where they get to sit on a chair and manage other people?

Well, most of the brickwork companies working for the big boys (Miller, Taylor Wimpey, etc) are contractors. Usually a load of young lads managed by a somewhat older gaffer. The gaffer doesn't usually sit on a chair all day. Most of the big newbuilds have multiple companies in there and they will be onsite for a good few years.

And the lads working are often agency with no job security, no sick pay, minimum holidays, crap pension and shit working conditions, not quite the easy win you would have us believe.

@KrispyKremeDream

Well, truck driving and forklift driving aren't very physical at all. But a lot of blue collar jobs certainly are.

I guess I just don't understand this drive to gentrify the working classes when many would likely feel more at home in the trucking world than in a corporate headquarters surrounded by MC folk called Quentin and Jeremy.

And IMO it's much easier to scale up a plumbing/electrical business and earn £100k than it is to do this in the corporate world. If you work for a big corporation you can't exactly strike out on your own as a competitor like many workmen do (going from being an employee, to SE, to a ltd company, then an SME, etc). And if you're earning £100k in a salaried job you're probs working bloody hard and dealing with a fair bit of stress.

One of our groundwork contractors is only about 30 and he's absolutely raking it in - just bought a car costing close to £200k. Not even the most intellectual guy. Has loads of Polish guys grafting for him and just gets the job done. No 'corporate strategy', KPIs, management meetings, etc.

If I could go back in time I reckon I'd probably do an apprenticeship and start my own contracting business. The work is there for the taking.

It's very difficult to scale up these kinds if jobs. As soon as you train someone they leave you to work for themselves for better pay.

I probably wasn't clear enough with my original question. Likely because I'm just reflecting on all this rather than stating objective truth.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should do a manual job until retirement age. I'm talking more about people considering whether it might be an option to learn a trade rather than just go and do a random degree. Obv I see the value in a focused degree but my brother, for example, did an English degree and now works in a fairly dead end corporate job and his degree seems like a waste of £30k to me. He's still paying it back in his 30s!

You could, for example, train as a sparky, get involved in projects, possibly head up a commercial team, go in corporate H&S, start an SME. There are many options aside from doing either manual work all your life or administrative work.

Just by way of example, the local car transporting company to us pays just £35k a year, that's 4 on 4 off, tramping 3 nights a shift. With that you've got the stress of ensuring the vehicles arrive in mint condition.

My father did exactly what you are suggesting, from one of the most deprived boroughs in the country with few prospects and had me as a teenager. Got a trade, found a niche, set up a business, scaled up. Now in his 50s and is a millionaire, spends half his time in America at times his holiday home and half his time here doing a bit of work. He gets lots of work in and passes it straight to subcontractors.

The lorry driver thing always baffles me when they’re touted as jobs that would be easy for low paid workers to do to earn more.

It costs a lot to get licenses. Folks can’t afford it.

@Watchingyou2sleezes

The more I read of the OP the more I'm seeing a Jenny come lately shite trumpet. Very little real world knowledge of either logistics or construction.

Depends how you define 'real world knowledge' of logistics. I usually got mortar to 7-8 sites within a shift, often with some fair distance between them. I had to have solid geographical knowledge that a sat nav won't give you.

More so than with corporate jobs, I find the planners and transport office are often the weak spot with logistics companies. Like having my runs planned in previous job by somebody who couldn't even drive a car.

@JustLyra

The lorry driver thing always baffles me when they’re touted as jobs that would be easy for low paid workers to do to earn more.

It costs a lot to get licenses. Folks can’t afford it.

Which is is why there are government schemes and finance options for training. But yes it can cost a few grand.

A person can be an office worker through poor health and into their senior years. Those physical jobs have to pay well because people aren’t going to be able to work as long.

Which is is why there are government schemes and finance options for training. But yes it can cost a few grand.

And “a few grand” is completely insurmountable to many people which makes it inaccessible as a career.

@name3958

Just by way of example, the local car transporting company to us pays just £35k a year, that's 4 on 4 off, tramping 3 nights a shift. With that you've got the stress of ensuring the vehicles arrive in mint condition.

Yes, it's not a job for everyone. But plenty of people work 5x12 hour shifts and then only have two days off instead of four.

Where I work (home counties), our admin staff average 35k and they don’t take work home.

@KrispyKremeDream

I probably wasn't clear enough with my original question. Likely because I'm just reflecting on all this rather than stating objective truth.

I'm not suggesting that everybody should do a manual job until retirement age. I'm talking more about people considering whether it might be an option to learn a trade rather than just go and do a random degree. Obv I see the value in a focused degree but my brother, for example, did an English degree and now works in a fairly dead end corporate job and his degree seems like a waste of £30k to me. He's still paying it back in his 30s!

You could, for example, train as a sparky, get involved in projects, possibly head up a commercial team, go in corporate H&S, start an SME. There are many options aside from doing either manual work all your life or administrative work.

Blah blah blah, you know naff all, This week I've had 134 people doing electrical work for me. The margin just 'sitting back' and raking it in isn't what you think. 'You could train as a sparky' 3 years minimum to be shit, takes about 7-8 years to be genuinely good from learned experience. Funnily enough I've had all sorts of self financed career change types approach for opportunities. Not one of them could make the grade because it's an experience job that you can't just buy your way into. On the books (employed) paid by day/month/year electricians are on as low as 27k to 40k as a good earn. House bashing on site the best are likely to get £1.8k/week absolute tops more likely £800- £1200/week. There's plenty of clueless Muppets plying their trade in the domestic market whose clients are effectively paying for these idiots to gain the required experience- but that's another issue. 'Get involved in projects' 'possibly head up a commercial team' a lot of electrical contracts managers have come through this route but, guess what, they're a long way from earning superstar money. Conjour up a successful SME out of the ether. You could do all of those, just like you could take a shit in a bear's cave. You were a come lately to the truck driving game and clearly don't know that as well as you think, spent a few months hanging around s building site and think you know all that too. The margins for these mythical SMEs on all site work are very tight and if you don't have an 'in' you can't just can't rock up Yosser Hughes style saying "I can do that"

Well my office job as a part qualified accountant is a 55k gross salary, wfh, 6 weeks paid annual leave plus bank hols, generous pension scheme, and up to 6 months fully paid sick and maternity leave. I'm also guaranteed my salary because my job is not weather dependent. Does your guy on £180 per day get anything close to this?

Married to one, you can't seriously think what you're describing here pootling down the motorway listening to the radio earning £50k is remotely reflective of the vast majority of trucking jobs? Do you seriously think the reason we have a HGV driver shortage is purely because of misconceptions and there are thousands of £50k a year roles just sitting there unclaimed? If what you were describing was the norm, we would not be in the situation we are.

I could absolutely pick up the phone tomorrow and be earning £20 an hour next week driving an arctic. And yes it could well involve pootling down the motorway listening to the radio. What else do you think we do to pass the time?

There are genuinely lots of well paid jobs available. Average driver is 55yo and there aren't enough young people training as drivers. Brexit has further exacerbated the issue. I've blocked most of the agencies I used to work for as I was getting calls/texts every day.

@user1471457751

Well my office job as a part qualified accountant is a 55k gross salary, wfh, 6 weeks paid annual leave plus bank hols, generous pension scheme, and up to 6 months fully paid sick and maternity leave. I'm also guaranteed my salary because my job is not weather dependent. Does your guy on £180 per day get anything close to this?

So you think that most peoe who work as surfacers could just jack it in and become an accountant? Reckon our labourer with no GCSEs could? 🤔

@KrispyKremeDream but that doesn't amount to a guaranteed £50k a year job, yes it's easy to pick up agency work, but many people need the stability of a permanent contract; guaranteed hours and pay, sociable hours, close to home, paid annual and sick leave, good pension- it's not so easy to call up and pick one of those up for next week. Agency pay is well paid for a reason.

@altiara

Where I work (home counties), our admin staff average 35k and they don’t take work home.

Ordinary admin staff getting that? Or do you mean people with more complex admin type roles?

I think I would rather lay tarmac than do absolute pointless nonsical corporate bullshit where everyone seems depressed and anxious.

Site managers generally take a pay cut to go into it compared with their trade jobs..