To wonder why office jobs are the default for the middle classes

[KrispyKremeDream]

I wonder if this is related to days past when manual labour was the reserve of the working class.

Having moved into the construction sector four years ago I was surprised how much a lot of skilled manual workers get paid. For instance, my company are currently desperate for surfacers to lay tarmac and they just can't seem to find enough for love nor money, despite paying £180 a day plus overtime.

Annually that works out at about £47k for eight hour days with absolutely no work taken home, which is a fair bit more than the national average and more than the average for a good few professional jobs. For example, the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites. One site listed the average at £42k. Up to £12k less than a groundworker.

I wonder if it's the perception of 'white van men' etc which we frequently see on here. There certainly seems to be a different view of these types of jobs which is evident in the shock horror threads about 'a builder asked to use the toilet'. I always reflect that the OP would likely not have been so aghast had her accountant asked if they could use the loo.

Same with truck driving jobs. Massive shortage and salaries well over £50k. In spite of this I still see much talk of 'making university mire accessible for WC people'. I'm not disagreeing that it should be an option for anybody who wants to go, but there are so many fork lift drivers out there on £18k who could easily transition to driving trucks and already have decent knowledge of warehousing and how deliveries/logistics work. These people could easily be on £50k+ with just a few weeks training to get the licenses - a lot of companies are desperate enough to take fresh passes and don't even enforce the two years experience anymore.

It just seems odd to me that there's so little focus on easy wins like this. Is it because this is just an area that politicians and most professionals don't really understand? It just seems odd to me.

I don't get your main point OP. What specifically are you referring to when you say "the push to get wc people into uni"? Push by who in what form? "Why aren't they encouraged to see the career potential in construction jobs?" Again, encouraged by who? And where's your evidence that they're not?

Working class people do more manual
/service jobs and middle class people do more office based/corporate/professional jobs. The latter tend overall to have better pay and conditions but of course that's not a blanket rule. Really don't get what point you're trying to make.

Because any work where you have to physically do anything is much tougher than an office based job on your body. Office jobs are hard mentally.

Plus it’s not about the money in the early days, of course £42k sounds great but an accountant can earn £75k very easily whilst a tarmac layer cannot.

OMG you are really are clueless giving replies such as this 🙄

If only these stupid people realised that using ear protection or knee pads will prevent the wear and tear on their body that using power tools and kneeling all day, for years, causes.

So you don't believe that wearing earplugs can significantly reduce noise induced hearing loss?

The people who jump down from their cabs onto hard surfaces are the ones who will later be saying that trucking ruined their knees.

I read somewhere how the university educated are less well off than tradesmen at 30 due to over head costs.
My Dbro is a millionaire through his building company, BIL close behind him on bank balance but has more property investments but both are nearing 50 and unable for the heavy physical work for much longer.
I have worked in offices most of my working life as do lots of neighbours and friends from a wc area.

Wel I imagine middle class women are put off because... well it's not a very welcoming industry for women and I'm sure there's some discrimination against 'weak' women workers.

And middle class men have always been taught that going to uni and academics is the goal. School, parents etc all push for it as the pinnacle of success. And not many people do a degree and then decide to go into manual labour.

Schools should teach more about vocations IMO.

What specifically are you referring to when you say "the push to get wc people into uni"? Push by who in what form?
Most of the teenagers around here go into third level education or apprenticeships no need for the push, Ta.

Plus it’s not about the money in the early days, of course £42k sounds great but an accountant can earn £75k very easily whilst a tarmac layer cannot.

Yes, but I'm not convinced that the type of working class lad who leaves school with my qualifications is necessarily a good prospect for a commercial accountant.

I'm not saying either is 'better', just that they should both be considered. It's depicted as aspirational for wc people to want to go to uni, but mc class people don't IME don't really get instructed on the full range of non-office careers.

I was a good bid manager but with ADHD it was absolute torture to spend all my time at a desk.

Strange but compelling thread.

'No qualifications' not 'my qualifications'.

@KrispyKremeDream

OMG you are really are clueless giving replies such as this 🙄

If only these stupid people realised that using ear protection or knee pads will prevent the wear and tear on their body that using power tools and kneeling all day, for years, causes.

So you don't believe that wearing earplugs can significantly reduce noise induced hearing loss?

Of course I do, but do you think ear defenders will prevent wear and tear on the body? No you don’t.

You are very selective in your replies. You show little insight into the impact of manual work and the culture of working on site.

@mswales

I don't get your main point OP. What specifically are you referring to when you say "the push to get wc people into uni"? Push by who in what form? "Why aren't they encouraged to see the career potential in construction jobs?" Again, encouraged by who? And where's your evidence that they're not?

Working class people do more manual
/service jobs and middle class people do more office based/corporate/professional jobs. The latter tend overall to have better pay and conditions but of course that's not a blanket rule. Really don't get what point you're trying to make.

Well, the school system tends to push the objective of performing well in education which is pretty irrelevant to somebody who wants to be a builder.

I think too many lads go to school, become disengaged, and go off the rails before they even get a chance. Fat spliff while waiting for the school bus every morning because they've already checked out of education.

I think more emphasis could be made that you can do well even if not academic. It seems like being good at academia is the first objective and only if that fails do we look at plan b, if at all.

I don't know the solution, I just feel that the current system doesn't work for a lot of individuals. Even by 13-14yo I reckon you can usually tell who is going to be a uni candidate and who probs won't ever have high flying career.

I'M not saying either is 'better', just that they should both be considered. It's depicted as aspirational for wc people to want to go to uni.
I understand what you mean it is aspirational because it is still a relatively new thing.
More parents are encouraging it as it is affordable through grants.
but mc class people don't IME don't really get instructed on the full range of non-office careers.
They will as mentioned I heard something about the realisation tradesmen were better off.

When I was a teenager our career guidance was horrendous, a tiny proportion of 500 went to college, some students definitely had the brain but were never encouraged.
Waitresses, shop assistants, sweeping hairdressers floors were the only work experience opportunities available to us.
We never dreamed we could be a professional.
Sadly that is still the case with work experience.
I'd love big companies to offer and show young people the other side.
It takes awhile for the wc/mc world to cross paths especially when there is resistance.

'High flying office career' I meant. Important distinction.

Many of the tradespeople I know actually used to have “middle-class” office jobs - and then they retrained to become plumbers, gardeners, carpenters, electricians, etc.

Of course I do, but do you think ear defenders will prevent wear and tear on the body? No you don’t.

You are very selective in your replies. You show little insight into the impact of manual work and the culture of working on site.

I can't be arsed to get into a pointless argument with somebody online when I spend hours onsite every single day watching people ignore the correct manual handling techniques and doing stupid stuff.

Yes, of course manual labour is harder on the body than sitting in a chair but the issue is exacerbated by most not wearing ear protection or sufficient padding. I was actually sat in the cab of one of our trucks yesterday and had to close the window due to the volume of one of the grinders or whatever being used on a nearby scaffold. He wasn't wearing any ear protectors and it must've been deafening where he was standing.

@Reallybadidea

A lot of the "high paid" jobs you mention will be on a self employed basis, i.e. no holiday pay, no sick pay, no pension, provide/pay your own tools/equipment/transport, and with the outside jobs, no pay when you can't work due to bad weather or suppliers not delivering the materials on time.

This. Plus I think it would be pretty difficult to sustain until retirement age.

Also, the average salary for an accountant might be 35k but that will include younger people on less money - experienced corporate accountants are probably on considerably more. Same with most professions - there's less or no career progression for manual labourers.

This. One of my friends is an accountant and she’s on about 45k. She’s only qualified about 3 years ago. She also lives in the north. The more responsibility she tahrs into the more she will earn.

It’s the public sector so she can’t make money privately really, which is where the bigger bucks are. Or working at one of the big 4.

So I don’t think your estimate for the average accountant is right at all. Not your fault though, but these sites aren’t great for true figures.

@DeepaBeesKit

It's because those jobs cap out at 40-50k, with experience.

the UK average for an accountant is only £35k having looked at about five different salary sites.

Anyone can call themselves an "accountant". Most middle class professionals will be chartered accountants. An experienced chartered accountant, 10 years post qualifying (so aged 35) in London, can often be on 100k (all the ones I know are). And it can go much higher.

This. Someone that’s spent 5 years training and sitting several exams is a chartered accountant. The average salary is not £35k

Just had a quick look on the prospects website and it says the average salary for a chartered account is £84,000

I know that was just one example of a job but the point is, that’s the epitome of a middle class professional job.

I know this might sound like a slightly daft point, but some blokes just want to have a massive beard etc and aren't prepared to 'sell out' for a job.

I know a few people like this and most have deprioritised monetary pursuits in their lives and just do stuff like barwork. However, there are plenty of jobs that pay half decently and don't necessitate a preppy clean cut look.

Don't know why I said 'blokes' as applies to both sexes. I think a lot of non conforming types who don't want to work in offices assume construction sites will be full of lairy wolf whistling geezers. Obv you're probs more likely to be catcalled walking past a building than a law firm but I think the stereotype is pretty much that.

The site manager at one of the sites I visit almost daily looks like Thor. Enormous beard, long hair, and drives a huge black pickup. He's absolutely not the type you'd even see in an accountancy firm but he's right on the ball in terms of site safety, in fact stricter than most, and undoubtedly makes a decent wage.

@TableFlowerss

Just had a quick look on the prospects website and it says the average salary for a chartered account is £84,000

I know that was just one example of a job but the point is, that’s the epitome of a middle class professional job.

@TableFlowerss

Average salaries can be misleading. If Bill Gates came to live in my street, the average salary would increase, but mine would remain unchanged. Average accountant salary takea account of partners / people in London earning £££

Many accountants will earn a lot less than 84,000 I think

My DH never went to university but earned well in IT for a decade before doing a carpentry course in 2004.

He's never looked back. I'm a SAHM now, he's booked up until March next year and we've just paid for next Summer's holiday.

Yes, I do think that often there is a desire from parents and schools to push middle class kids, or kids who do well at school work, into office type jobs, and university.

Which is a good fit for some, but not always more money, for sure. And also, there are lots of people who would rather be outdoors more, working with their hands, not have to take work home, etc.

It's also trye that many of these jobs will be ones people will not want to keep working in after retirement, or are seasonal, etc. Not all are themselves that much better. But for some reason certain families just totally overlook them as options for their kids.

Some of the most well off people I know are building contractors, all of whom started off as tradesmen. It can be a really good career path for people with the right interests and talents.

(And just for informational purposes, I have an undergrad degree, as well as a diploma, and work in an office type setting. I make about half of what I'd make as a young carpenter or bricklayer, even without considering what I spent on my education and the years I wasn't earning.)