To ask why having children is such an expectation?

[stereeotype]

If it wasn't an expectation of your family, friends, society...would you really have had the burning desire for children?

It's such a societal expectation that I genuinely think it is what persuades a lot of people to have them.

I'm ambivalent about children and have posted a few times recently about it but just wandered if it wasn't for external pressure would you really genuinely have seen children as a sensible decision?

It would also be great to hear from those who didn't give into pressure and are later in life and happy with the decision they made - I don't seem to hear many of those accounts either on MN or IRL

@stereeotype you have my very sympathy. I hear you. I call this paralysing ambivalence. I have a kinda doom feeling for either option too but that is what good old fashioned anxiety does. I think about it all the fu*king time.

Never though I’d be here in a million years. I’m envious of women who are “yes” or “no” to this child debate.

I do believe that the Mumsnet opinions can be extreme so it is nice to hear some positivity like @Cameleongirl.

Thinking of you. Please feel to PM if you would like a “chat”.xx

[quote stereeotype]Anyone else ambivalent I found this useful (ignore the fact it's a cartoon!)

[/quote] Haha. I like this.

I am starting to realise that what I thought was the desire for kids was really just social pressure and expectation. I have zero 'biological' urge. I can't even imagine what that is. I look at babies and small kids and think they're cute but I have zero inclination to do the grunt work of looking after them day to day. I worked as an au pair for a while and found it largely boring and repetitive. I couldn't stand how the kids squabbled and bickered constantly and I think I'd honestly be driven insane if that was my life every day. The thought of being pregnant, giving birth and dealing with damage to my body afterwards fills me with absolute horror. Perhaps I will still get this 'urge' in the future but I'm 36 and it hasn't happened yet.

I hate how women who don't really want kids are still seen as selfish or strange. I'm not a monster, I do like kids, I just don't know if I'm cut out for dealing with them all the time and all that responsibility. Being on the autistic spectrum with resulting depression and anxiety, I often find it difficult to look after myself, let alone be responsible for other humans. Perhaps if I did have kids it would all be fine and work out, but I hate people telling me that. They say it so flippantly, as if there aren't plenty of very valid reasons to choose not to have kids in my position.

I used to want them when I was in my 20s. With hindsight, this was partly because of societal expectation; partly a desire to create my own family as my parents were abusive; partly because I like babies and children.

By my late thirties, I realised I’d never dated anyone that I’d trust enough to have children with, and that it probably wasn’t going to happen. I thought about that for a while - considered going it alone (IVF / adoption) and concluded I didn’t want them enough to be a single parent.

Almost ten years on, and I’m SO relieved that I made the right choice for me.

Quite apart from my personal circumstances - every time I read about climate change and what state the planet will be in in fifty years, I’m grateful I don’t have kids.

I do think that women who do not have them do not know what they are missing

Oh ffs.
Along with “it’ll be different when they’re your own”, “there’s no love like it”, “you haven’t known true love”, “who’ll look after you when you’re old”, “you’ll change your mind”, “you’ll regret it if you don’t” and other such inanities that complete the bingo card, this is one of the most stupid thing said to/about childfree people.

I don’t need to experience something to know what it’s like and to know I don’t want to experience it firsthand. I have watched all my siblings and most of my friends have children and I have seen how their lives have changed because of doing so. I know very well what I’m ‘missing out’ on and I am thankful every single day of my life that I don’t and won’t have children.

I don’t need to experience a bungee jump to know it’s not for me. I know I don’t want to be a surgeon for a multitude of reasons, and I absolutely do know what being a surgeon requires and entails.

First hand personal experience is not the only valid experience when it comes to making life choices and people are perfectly capable of assessing a potential situation, realising the realities for them and thinking fuck NO.

With respect to the social pressure, this is one of the very few areas where I actually feel safer with men. They bring children up less, and if the conversation somehow reveals you dont have children, I personally can't remember ever having been made to feel anything negative. Like with the working mums vs SAHMs clash, it does seem to be a debate where men are absent, at least in my experience.

I don't believe in the "biological urge", because I don't see why a drive like that would exist in women and not men to equal proportions. It doesnt make sense. I believe what people describe as (and feels like) biological urge is probably a complex combination of social pressure, existential dread and fear of death getting mashed up in the subconscious.

That's for those who feel the "biological urge". Then I think there are people who love children and cherish the idea of nurturing a little human. Who also love their partner and rejoice at the idea of creating a combination of the two of them, leaving behind a legacy, and just enjoying the happiness I'm sure children bring to life. These people tend not to talk in terms of something being an urge or instinct, they tend to phrase it more like "I really wanted a child" or "I just knew I always wanted them" or "it felt right/it felt like something was missing".

I think you are right. I have 2 dc and always wanted children from a young age .however so many women in the public eye seem judged and often asked about plans for a family when their other halves arent!

The reason it doesn't exist to the same extent in men is that (for the purpose of propagating the species) it doesn't need to. Men can sow their seed and bugger off (and some do). Women need to give birth and be invested in rearing the young or the species would die out.

Oh and one last thing before I finally get off my arse and do some work! One of the things that has been a massive barrier to me having children is the medical side of things. The idea of having to be prodded and inspected and then the horror movie visions of labour and giving birth are really terrifying to me. I'm someone who gets really panicky at the idea of having blood taken or going for a smear. I really admire those women who seem very relaxed about the whole thing and have a chilled attitude to the whole process, it seems like they have a very balanced mindset. I wish I were a man when it comes to children.

I thought we both had a biological urge but from the discussions above I don't know if it was that, I would say we were very much compelled to have a child, I know that there was something else going on as I was 28 and at the early stages of a very good career, the type of career that had taken most of my 20's to build up to so it wasn't societal pressure as if anything most people were shocked where I worked, thought I was quite young, my boss particularly so she thought it was a nonsensical idea at that stage in my life. My now DH was younger than me and was training to be an Architect still so we had a tiny flat we were renting, certainly couldn't fit a cot in the bedroom as we had to almost climb in the bed from the door due to the size of the room. My husband is about to turn 40 and many people in the industry he works in - architecture and as he is based in London (I think) can't believe he has an almost 15 year old! So I think in our case it was purely an emotional decision based on our adoration of each other at the time. We have kind of grown up with our eldest. It sounds odd but I'm a very childish person anyway and at 28 was even more so. DH has always been mature though and paternal not sure if it is because his Dad died when he was quite young and he is the eldest. He is good with money and choices so it has turned out fine. I think that urge would not have existed for DH in to his late 30's, it was definitely a young man decision for him.

Worth pointing out our ideas about nurturing and bringing up children and indeed about childhood itself are relatively modern. Completely different from the Victorian era for example. Wealthy aristocrats did no nurturing, they had nannies and governesses to do that.

OK, but the woman still had to be invested enough to go through pregnancy and childbirth. So it still makes sense for a woman to have more of a biological urge than a man.

@fournonblondes

May be pressure is part of it but biological clock is definitely real. However, the social pressure is less now for women to have kids. At least in this country. ( UK) I do think that women who do not have them do not know what they are missing. For me the best experience of my life. On the other hand if I would have not pregnant easily I would not go through treatments specially in my forties to have kids. There definitely pro and cons and happiness is possible regardless if you have them or not.

Patronising much?

'Oh ffs.
Along with “it’ll be different when they’re your own”, “there’s no love like it”, “you haven’t known true love”, “who’ll look after you when you’re old”, “you’ll change your mind”, “you’ll regret it if you don’t” and other such inanities that complete the bingo card, this is one of the most stupid thing said to/about childfree people'

Well said. Saw that stupid comment last night and thought how very inappropriate it was on this thread. It's that famed parental empathy and sensitivity at work again!

@LoveComesQuickly

OK, but the woman still had to be invested enough to go through pregnancy and childbirth. So it still makes sense for a woman to have more of a biological urge than a man.

Well not really, pregnancy was difficult to avoid if you were married, there was an expectation to produce an heir and the woman would be blamed for being barren if it didn’t happen or if there were multiple failed attempts.

@LoveComesQuickly
But that drive you're talking about, the one that kicks in to sustain a child and see yourself through a pregnancy and rearing, would surely be a biological urge that occurs AFTER procreation. It wouldnt surprise me at all to learn that there is some hormonal thing that occurs when a woman is pregnant to make her more protective. In fact when we say that pregnant women get all hormonal and emotions are high, maybe that is to do with being biologically forced to be more aware and in tune with potential threat and harm?

But prior to procreation, it wouldnt make any sense for a biological urge to exist. If you did want to go that far back into when we were animals, then if you're going to suggest that women are engineered to biologically need to procreate, then wouldnt it be true that men must be wandering around with a biological urge to kill off the offspring of other men?

The “who’ll visit you / look after you when you’re old” argument is absolute BS, as well as being profoundly selfish. I don’t expect nor would I want my DD to have to give up her life to look after me if I was unwell or needed care.

@Voord

The “who’ll visit you / look after you when you’re old” argument is absolute BS, as well as being profoundly selfish. I don’t expect nor would I want my DD to have to give up her life to look after me if I was unwell or needed care.

I have a friend who is religious - a committed Christian, she's in her 30s and has always lived with her mother who is in her mod 50s and has some health issues (partly the reason for living together is due to the economics and some due to the fact she hasn't met a partner yet). She says that 'sacrificing' her time/life to care for her mother is an honour. She also pointed out to me that she wouldn't have much else to do (with all this spare time?) She doesn't do Tinder/drink/go out/it's unaffordable to live alone/it would be isolating to live alone... Just wanted to present a different example to this thread in terms of having children and expectations.

@Voord

The “who’ll visit you / look after you when you’re old” argument is absolute BS, as well as being profoundly selfish. I don’t expect nor would I want my DD to have to give up her life to look after me if I was unwell or needed care.

And having children is no guarantee that they will look after you. They may have emigrated by the time you need care, or they may simply not care.

@zonky I always wonder with people like that how they can possibly know what they're missing out on. It's a tiny little life full of codependence, IMO. I think parents who encourage their children not to ever leave home or go out and experience the world are failing them.

@Lottapianos

'Oh ffs. Along with “it’ll be different when they’re your own”, “there’s no love like it”, “you haven’t known true love”, “who’ll look after you when you’re old”, “you’ll change your mind”, “you’ll regret it if you don’t” and other such inanities that complete the bingo card, this is one of the most stupid thing said to/about childfree people'

Well said. Saw that stupid comment last night and thought how very inappropriate it was on this thread. It's that famed parental empathy and sensitivity at work again!

Absolutely! It makes me laugh when parents claim that having children made them a better person and then come out with that utter insulting and patronising bollocks

@Lottapianos

'Oh ffs. Along with “it’ll be different when they’re your own”, “there’s no love like it”, “you haven’t known true love”, “who’ll look after you when you’re old”, “you’ll change your mind”, “you’ll regret it if you don’t” and other such inanities that complete the bingo card, this is one of the most stupid thing said to/about childfree people'

Well said. Saw that stupid comment last night and thought how very inappropriate it was on this thread. It's that famed parental empathy and sensitivity at work again!

The other thing is that you never know if the person you're talking to has chosen not to have them. It's patronising and insulting in any case, but if someone said that to my face on a bad day? It'd be heartbreaking.

Like I've said a few times on this thread. Motherhood is treated by many as an elite club.

I get the 'never know love like it', 'different when they're your own' comments - I'm pretty sure if DH and I had decided to try for a family we would have loved our child in pretty much the same way as anyone else, would have done our absolute best to raise them with love and kindness. The thing is, I'd have hated so much of the stuff that goes around raising children.

I'd hate the boredom of dealing with babies and small children, notwithstanding the moments of joy.

I'd hate having to deal with other children in my attempts to help my child socialise and navigate the world.

I'd hate never being 'free' of the worry and angst - a dear friend is currently in shreds because her lovely boy, aged 28, appears to be in an abusive relationship, she is watching him turn into a shell of himself and there is nothing she can do about it.

Not to mention all the worries about the teenage years, having to advocate for a child with disabilities etc.

We love our quiet, calm existence. We love spending time together and have a good life. It may seem to have no real focus or meaning to some who have decided to have a family but it's all a bit existential - perpetuating the human race in all its gore and glory but for no real reason other than for subsequent generations to carry on carrying on.

It wouldnt surprise me at all to learn that there is some hormonal thing that occurs when a woman is pregnant to make her more protective.

www.scientificamerican.com/article/pregnancy-causes-lasting-changes-in-a-womans-brain/ There's brain re-wiring going and I'm sure I've read about women bodies process drugs differently post pregencies. Any changes in a woman's priorities is probbaly a mix of biology and society messages.

Doesn't change the fact I was very broody well before we tried for a child - DH and a few male friends pick it up - and if anything there was social pressure to not have child -that young 27 - the bulk of our social group and peers waited till older.

I conceive relatively quickly but if felt like forever and I did get upset and worried. It was only once several month pregnant I had the WTF have I done here moments. I'm not stupid I knew or thought I knew what motherhood and pg meant and did a lot of thinking before hand - and yes that included beyond babyhood and into adulthood - but the emotional wollap didn't hit me till several months pg.

Intellectually there were good reasons to wait and reasons not to - and for me DH had to be fully onboard. We knew we'd have children eventually and I think ideally DH would have waited a bit longer just to be more settled career/location/money wise but was swayed by my obvious desire and need. I'm usually the logically one saying no or not yet - so I do think there was some biological drive going on there.

Whether that drive would have kicked in if we hadn't been together for years and married and had money in bank ie we were in position to provide basic securities for a child I'm not so sure.

DH later said to friends there no perfect time to have kids - and I do look back and wonder what we vaguely felt we had to wait for - a lot of the imputus to settle down further came from the kids needs driving us.

I'm sure I could have lived a very happy fulfilled life with no children - I know many people who have/do though but personally I got lucky and massively enjoyed motherhood overall. One of the many great things about living in a western democracy in a relatively wealthy country is there are so many paths /chocies/options open to women.