To be really sick of people blaming Labour for the Tories

[daimbarsatemydogsbone]

WTAF? It's a Tory government doing this stuff, yet rather than try voting for someone else, people are tripping over themselves to bleat on about weak leader, lack of opposition etc
If a "strong leader" is some twat like Boris then I won't be able to vote Labour. For now and in the last few elections, I haven't needed some Boris-alike twat at the helm to convince me to Labour, nor should anyone else.

Fair enough if you are an actual Tory and would vote for a dead horse with a blue rosette but anyone who is a floating voter - how much more shit do the Tories need to be for you to stop blaming Labour for them?

@Pyewackect

Labour are still unelectable.

This is nonsense. This is just a meaningless phrase.

Labour are currently, in the eyes of the electorate as a whole, roughly as electable as the Tories. That is why they are broadly level.

If a Labour politician asked me for advice on how to win over Tory voters, I would say:

-stop name-calling, i.e. ‘scum’, ‘nasty’, etc. It makes Labour sound irrational and blinded by class bigotry

-talk policy, be well researched and back it up with serious, credible policy. I am desperate to hear it!

-go in strong against corruption / dishonesty against all politicians, regardless of party affiliation. Labour sound hypocritical when they attack the Tories but protect their own

-stop trying to punish rich people and focus on policies that are in the country’s best economic interests, backed by research

—listen to women, for goodness’ sake, and stop gaslighting us when we say that women’s spaces matter

@Sean2001

Sorry - but I think this reads as you being too lazy to do any research or follow what's going on in the world. Failure to look around you and outside of your own little bubble.

A gut feeling on the day - predictability?

Haha not sure what bubble that would be - the bubble of the UK General Populace for the last couple of decades?! Whether you like it or not that is the 'bubble' who decides the government of this country.

Considering I have a voting record which defies the best pollsters predictions in the country; I think it would be debatable about who knows more about whats going on and who's failing to look around.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone
Thanks for the thanks for sharing. You dont need to respect it. It is what it is. But I do hope it gives some insight into to how some floating voters made their choice at the last GE.

"Labour are still unelectable." This is nonsense. This is just a meaningless phrase.

UNELECTABLE

adjective , very likely to be defeated at an election.

[quote LemonSwan]@Sean2001

Sorry - but I think this reads as you being too lazy to do any research or follow what's going on in the world. Failure to look around you and outside of your own little bubble.

A gut feeling on the day - predictability?

Haha not sure what bubble that would be - the bubble of the UK General Populace for the last couple of decades?! Whether you like it or not that is the 'bubble' who decides the government of this country.

Considering I have a voting record which defies the best pollsters predictions in the country; I think it would be debatable about who knows more about whats going on and who's failing to look around.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone
Thanks for the thanks for sharing. You dont need to respect it. It is what it is. But I do hope it gives some insight into to how some floating voters made their choice at the last GE.[/quote]
I can see that a large proportion (was it really a majority?) may have been floating voters like you @LemonSwan - going with what was predictable.

But surely you can see that that was a choice based on fear.

And since we've ended up with a government that is risking the reputation and future of this country, including our childrens' futures, based on it's reckless and irresponsible greed - well, your gut feeling and reliance on predictability hasn't really paid off. Has it?

[quote LemonSwan]@Sean2001

Sorry - but I think this reads as you being too lazy to do any research or follow what's going on in the world. Failure to look around you and outside of your own little bubble.

A gut feeling on the day - predictability?

Haha not sure what bubble that would be - the bubble of the UK General Populace for the last couple of decades?! Whether you like it or not that is the 'bubble' who decides the government of this country.

Considering I have a voting record which defies the best pollsters predictions in the country; I think it would be debatable about who knows more about whats going on and who's failing to look around.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone
Thanks for the thanks for sharing. You dont need to respect it. It is what it is. But I do hope it gives some insight into to how some floating voters made their choice at the last GE.[/quote]
Thank you - it is very decent of you to put up your reasoning. I do respect everyone's right to vote how they wish and for whatever reason, even if I don't agree with it, or think the logic is flawed.
As I mentioned before - on the recent thread about Gordon Brown there were people who contended that Brown was correct to dismiss Gillian Duffy as a bigot (and also felt he only apologised as a cynical ploy that he didn't really believe in). I know a lot of people seem to think that was a minor thing (it didn't even feature in the recent Blair/Brown documentary), but I thought it was a bit of a turning point in terms of how some Senior Labour people saw their voters and supporters.

@Gilmoregale

On the responses relating to policies to persuade people to vote for non-Tory parties, there's only one concrete answer I can see so far.

And that is, that a party needs to understand and support what being biologically female is (not cis, not transgender, not any other current jargon). As part of that, they need to ensure that women (cis women as the current jargon has it) have protected access to women-only spaces (loos, prisons, rape crisis centres, etc). (I hate the jargon, and the potential impact of those spaces no longer being women only, I just can't think of any other way to express it that will make it as clear as possible in the current climate.)

Is my understanding correct, and is that the only policy, or are there other policies that non-Tory parties would need to have in place to persuade voters to support them?

I have a serious problem with their embracing of identity politics more generally, freedom of thought issues, etc.

A more realistic discussion about things like the role of the nation state, immigration and trade deals vs protection of labour and industry, and issues around making communities viable rather than propping them up through state supports.

Both the LP and CP have become liberal parties since the early 80s.Labour leans more socially liberal, and has some high level state interventions economically but is basically still economically liberal, while the CP is more economically liberal but has some more structured approaches to community and society. OTOH there are some indications they are becoming more interested in low level economic leftist approaches.

So at base, neither is very satisfying for someone who is a traditional, communitarian, British type leftist.

And since we've ended up with a government that is risking the reputation and future of this country, including our childrens' futures, based on it's reckless and irresponsible greed - well, your gut feeling and reliance on predictability hasn't really paid off. Has it?

This is the problem things aren't good, not going to deny that. I can't however say they would be better under labour and that's the issue. You can't just claim "see tories have screwed up therefore it was a mistake" without also explaining how and why the options would have been better. There's too much negative politics around. I don't want to hear why I shouldn't vote for the tories but what labour genuinely have to offer.

@Wtfdoipick

‘I don't want to hear why I shouldn't vote for the tories but what labour genuinely have to offer.’

Yes! This is my view too. I don’t know what Labour have to offer to me or to the country as a whole. I have a bit of a sense of what they may offer to those on lower incomes, but no idea about their economic plan for the country as a whole.

There's the start of some very good points on here that Labour would do well to listen to (and I say that as a lifelong socialist, mainly Labour voting, except for the time when the LibDems were the only - wafer slim - chance that the local Tory where I now live would be kicked out. Though where I currently live, they could stick a blue rosette on one of the beach donkeys and they'd get elected. And most definitely do a better job.).

So far, then, that's issues around gender politics; lack of clarity of message; a feeling for low income/traditional working class folk that their concerns are being ignored; and climate change (especially relevant in the light of the report that's been published today - though if people really understood what it's likely to take to turn that around, or even stop it where it is now, there would almost certainly be riots in the streets. I have a feeling what's left of future generations aren't going to think much of us, somehow).

Plus a few more policies around tackling corruption, managing immigration, and oh, yes, Brexit...

But surely you can see that that was a choice based on fear.
Sure we can agree on that; Fear of the unknown and defensive/protectionist voting

And since we've ended up with a government that is risking the reputation and future of this country, including our childrens' futures, based on it's reckless and irresponsible greed - well, your gut feeling and reliance on predictability hasn't really paid off. Has it?

Well yes I do think that was predictable. It affects our public coffers and future debt but their corruption doesn't really affect my day to day right now.

Overall the last few years have been alright for me. I haven't drowned so far and have managed to make slow but steady progress to a more financially stable future for my children. That might be personal and selfish as others have not faired as well. But atleast I am honest that I vote to my own protectionist interests first and foremost - I cant honestly afford not to at this stage in life. I hope later thats a luxury I can afford.

have managed to make slow but steady progress to a more financially stable future for my children.

I'd be worried about your children's futures full stop @LemonSwan and I know under the Tories the future is not financially stable for them. Not at all. As far as that goes they're fucked - excuse my language.

The UK as we know it so far and have enjoyed will not be the same for our kids. The Tory government have already trashed a vast vast amount of their future - if they get in again it will get a lot worse.

I don't vote with protectionist interests - actually I do, but not just for me. I think of everyone around me. Because thinking about and looking after each other ... means that we're all OK. That's better for all of us.

@Pyewackect

"Labour are still unelectable." This is nonsense. This is just a meaningless phrase.

UNELECTABLE

adjective , very likely to be defeated at an election.

Firstly, there is no election.

It is also too simplistic to say 'Labour is unelectable' - do you mean in each constituency or in each nation or into solo UK government?

Labour are electable in enough constituencies to deprive the Tories of a majority.

If your definition is 'can't form an outright majority government' - the Tories are pretty much in the same place currently.

Saying 'Labour are unelectable' is a meaningless phrase.

@Sean2001
I dont think you can really say that tbh. To make that statement you need to know the ins and outs of my personal circumstance and finances, where I was a number of years back, and where I am now.

That's fine @LemonSwan

You must be up there with the rich then - if you think your kids will be OK under Tory rule.

Another "I'm alright Jack".

Well done.

@Sean2001

That's fine *@LemonSwan*

You must be up there with the rich then - if you think your kids will be OK under Tory rule.

Another "I'm alright Jack".

Well done.

What haha?!? I work part time minimum wage in a care home lol.

You posted earlier this month your buying a house in cash, after selling a house in cash, and whether you mad to not have a survey.

That shows your a) financially fortunate and b) likely born in 2001 if you have to ask the net for advice if having a survey or not is mad - not that the answer one way or another is mad, but that you were so unsure of yourself you had to ask the net.

So I think this convo is over tbh. Your ridiculous.

Labour are unelectable though, they have no strength or conviction they literally told people NOT to vote for them that they didn't want there votes if they didn't believe as they did they are not offering the general population a THING its ridiculous to see them fail on such a grand scale

Tldr
They told people not to vote for them and were surprised when they lost I can't support such stupidity

@Theunamedcat

Labour are unelectable though, they have no strength or conviction they literally told people NOT to vote for them that they didn't want there votes if they didn't believe as they did they are not offering the general population a THING its ridiculous to see them fail on such a grand scale

Tldr
They told people not to vote for them and were surprised when they lost I can't support such stupidity

Things change in politics.

"Things change in politics"

Except they haven't they haven't turned around and said we are sorry we fucked up please vote for us we know rapists "suddenly" claiming to be women after they get caught shouldn't be in women's prisons and we will legislate accordingly etc etc nope they just let details which I told them to erase be compromised in a hacking episode seriously they can't even respect my right to fucking flounce

@Theunamedcat

"Things change in politics"

Except they haven't they haven't turned around and said we are sorry we fucked up please vote for us we know rapists "suddenly" claiming to be women after they get caught shouldn't be in women's prisons and we will legislate accordingly etc etc nope they just let details which I told them to erase be compromised in a hacking episode seriously they can't even respect my right to fucking flounce

You can do as you wish. If you think the current Tory government is the best on offer vote for them. If not vote for an alternative that has a chance in your constituency.

But things change in politics.

@Sean2001

have managed to make slow but steady progress to a more financially stable future for my children.

I'd be worried about your children's futures full stop @LemonSwan and I know under the Tories the future is not financially stable for them. Not at all. As far as that goes they're fucked - excuse my language.

The UK as we know it so far and have enjoyed will not be the same for our kids. The Tory government have already trashed a vast vast amount of their future - if they get in again it will get a lot worse.

I don't vote with protectionist interests - actually I do, but not just for me. I think of everyone around me. Because thinking about and looking after each other ... means that we're all OK. That's better for all of us.

You sound like a Labour chatbot.

@Sean2001

That's fine *@LemonSwan*

You must be up there with the rich then - if you think your kids will be OK under Tory rule.

Another "I'm alright Jack".

Well done.

More Labour 'virtue-signalling' chat bot.....best not engage folks.