To be really sick of people blaming Labour for the Tories

[daimbarsatemydogsbone]

WTAF? It's a Tory government doing this stuff, yet rather than try voting for someone else, people are tripping over themselves to bleat on about weak leader, lack of opposition etc
If a "strong leader" is some twat like Boris then I won't be able to vote Labour. For now and in the last few elections, I haven't needed some Boris-alike twat at the helm to convince me to Labour, nor should anyone else.

Fair enough if you are an actual Tory and would vote for a dead horse with a blue rosette but anyone who is a floating voter - how much more shit do the Tories need to be for you to stop blaming Labour for them?

I would love to know if any polling has been done on the Gender ID issues and how they play to voters.

I've even recently heard comments from those Red Wall locations along the lines of, "Oh, well the Tories are great because they've given us food banks and under Labour there weren't no food banks" and that's usually the point at which I just give up and bury my nose in a vat of artisan gin.

Stupid, stupid people being grateful they're not having to go hungry. If they had any principles they'd be willing to starve to death for ideological purity. Surely they could have hung in there for another decade or so for the Labour party to get elected with promises to improve their lot it life. But hang on they had 13 years to do something and these voters were still going hungry.

I'm the same as a previous poster in that I don't like the tories, Boris Johnson is a joke but we have a semi decent tory mp here in an area that isn't a safe seat but is a real 2 horse race, all other parties are lucky if they keep their deposits but labour under corbyn scared the living daylights out of me, I couldn't vote for Labour. Out of 2 really bad options the tories were a slightly safer option in my opinion (please note safer is a comparative term)

Covid has been a shitstorm but I see no reason to believe it would have been any less of a shit storm under corbyn. Different shitstorm maybe but still bad.

I think you're 'labouring' under various misapprehensions OP, as has been pointed out by various people. Most people who complain about the Tories probably didn't vote for them. I haven't seen anyone 'blame Labour for the Tories'. And huge numbers of people who are complaining about Labour are doung so precisely because they really really want to be able to vote for them.

Yeah, I'll berate labour. I fucking want to vote labour. I want to have a party that represents a left of centre politics in government without the regressive identity bullshit and moralising.

^This. Labour aren't saying 'We're shit, but not as shit as the other guys' as you said upthread. What they are saying, or at least implying, is 'If you don't like our policies enough to vote for us, you're stupid, parochial, bigoted and wrong.'

@FOJN Firstly, most food banks are run by volunteers, NOT the Tory party, despite their gurning PR selfies.

Secondly, it's a whole bunch ofTory policies since 2010 that have made them necessary.

@daimbarsatemydogsbone a poll about self id was done in Scotland recently (can't remember by who) and 80% are against it

@LemonSwan

I have been thinking about how I can try to sum this up; because voting for me is all about feelings - mainly because I dont trust any of them to do what they say they will so really its about a gut instinct.

As a floating voter who voted Tory last election (who has never voted against the majority). If I can sum up my feelings in the last election it would be that I was treading water off shore in an already choppy sea. I can see a huge fuck off storm rolling in and I have to make a decision.

The tories to me represented a predictable current. They are quite consistently awful in a predictable way. I am going to have to swim bloody hard to get back to shore but its probably doable and hopefully I wont drown.

Labour on the other hand was completely unpredictable. To me they looked like a riptide of which direction I had no idea where it would take me. Yes they may have taken me straight back to shore, but they also may have taken me 20 more miles out to sea. The momentum and main party labour divide is confusing; it seemed to me half of labour are hell bent on going one direction and the other half hell bent on other. Its a gamble I wasn't willing to make.

I hope that makes some sense to Labour voters who don't really understand floating voters. We are gut voters. We generally hate everyone. And really it keeps boiling down to least worse option.
Which last election for me was:

• vote for 1 group you hate
• vote for an amalgamation of two groups you hate, which also hate each other.

I really hope Labour unites and comes back to reflect the average working voter. Because I am pretty sure most people think its time for a change. We have had the Torys for ever now.

Thanks for sharing this.

I'd have respect for it if not for the fact that Conservatives are at least as divided - the UKIP refugees vs the John Major/Ken Clarke wing. A mid-term leadership coup could take the Tories off in an entirely different direction so they aren't even that predictable in my opinion.

It's actually a symptom of our FPTP electoral system - people with widely different views and principles all have to try and get along in two big parties as they are the only ones with a chance of power.

I suspect that if we'd had PR, we might never have had the referendum, because the millions of votes that UKIP got would have bene represented in parliament - and they'd have looked as silly as they did when they were elected to the EU and various councils. But due to FPTP the Tories had to find a way to try and appease the UKIP voters who were proportionately a greater share of Tory voters.

[quote Hoardasurass]@daimbarsatemydogsbone a poll about self id was done in Scotland recently (can't remember by who) and 80% are against it[/quote]
Thanks for this - that alone should tell Labour something surely?

Gilmoregale

My issue was less about the logic of your point and more about your contemptuous attitude and your inability to understand the reality of other people's lives.

People with absolutely fuck all will vote to be £5 better off this week than to be £500 better off at some point in the future. They don't have the luxury of time to wait for better.

@lazylinguist

I think you're 'labouring' under various misapprehensions OP, as has been pointed out by various people. Most people who complain about the Tories probably didn't vote for them. I haven't seen anyone 'blame Labour for the Tories'. And huge numbers of people who are complaining about Labour are doung so precisely because they really really want to be able to vote for them.

Yeah, I'll berate labour. I fucking want to vote labour. I want to have a party that represents a left of centre politics in government without the regressive identity bullshit and moralising.

^This. Labour aren't saying 'We're shit, but not as shit as the other guys' as you said upthread. What they are saying, or at least implying, is 'If you don't like our policies enough to vote for us, you're stupid, parochial, bigoted and wrong.'

Fair points - I am actually pleasantly surprised by the range and quality of debate on this thread.

I guess I was happier than many to vote for the Corbyn led Labour party as it represented some actual proper socialist policies.

I was a bit surprised by a recent discussion about the time Gordon Brown called that woman a bigot. A lot of people turned up to say "but of course she was a bigot" - but not one was prepared to engage in any debate at all on why they thought that - it was just "obvious" she was a bigot. As you say, with supporters like that it's really easy to alienate voters.

I'm another politically homeless voter. I voted Lib Dem in the laat couple of elections (I live in the closest thing to a safe Lib Dem seat). I won't vote Tory and I refuse to vote for any party that doesn't know what a woman is, so I guess I'm spoiking my ballot paper for the first time.

No but what does really piss me off is time and time again people blaming Tories for things that have happened under a local LABOUR council. I don’t rate either parties, Starmer and Raynor are a complete joke, they are woke and out of touch with their usual Labour voters and Boris is like some kind of joke figure whose not fit fit office.

@FOJN well people 'with fuck all' (in your words) have had £20 p/w taken off them haven't they ? And doubt you've even been to the bl*y red wall. I live in a red wall seat and I think I am entitled to say I am gobsmacked to see people voting for the same party in government that has actively neglected our shitty northern town. Libraries shut (6 out of 12), surestarts gone, schools falling apart and a town centre that looks like something out of a war torn third world country. Yes I am surprised they've voted for more of the same.

@Wineandroses3 you do know that central government has cut funding to local councils, literally millions and more to come. Funnily enough Labour councils have been hit worse.

@FOJN I grew up in one of the poorest parts of Newcastle. I often went to school with cardboard in my shoes and elastic round my socks to keep them up, and there were many times we had to make hard decisions about heating, and food, and clothing. Luckily we had kind relatives who often helped us out with the last two.

I know exactly how hard it is for people, and I understand only too well about having to make a practical decision for today and not having the luxury of thinking about tomorrow, let alone 5 years down the line and the next generation.

I don't despise people in economically difficult circumstances. But I will never understand people who continue to vote into power governments that make the lives of those who are poor worse on a daily basis. And if those Red Wall constituencies seriously think the Tories are going to keep their promises, I think they're in for something of a shock.

Just a couple of example overviews of the damage the Tories have done since 2010 can be found at www.independent.co.uk/news/health/tory-austerity-deaths-study-report-people-die-social-care-government-policy-a8057306.html and -www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/05/food-bank-britain-trussell-trust-report-election - and they was before COVID-19.

There's also a very informative thread, from the perspective of just one person affected by recent political decisions, at www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4392552-When-its-freezing-and-you-cant-put-the-heating-on-and-breakfast-is-porridge-made-with-water

Combined with the thread www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/4391673--to-struggle-to-comprehend-huge-salaries there's a pretty good insight into much of what's currently wrong, at an individual level, with the current political/social/economic system we've got

@Wtfdoipick

I'm the same as a previous poster in that I don't like the tories, Boris Johnson is a joke but we have a semi decent tory mp here in an area that isn't a safe seat but is a real 2 horse race, all other parties are lucky if they keep their deposits but labour under corbyn scared the living daylights out of me, I couldn't vote for Labour. Out of 2 really bad options the tories were a slightly safer option in my opinion (please note safer is a comparative term)

Covid has been a shitstorm but I see no reason to believe it would have been any less of a shit storm under corbyn. Different shitstorm maybe but still bad.

I'm sure you're talking about the previous election here.

But you do know that Corbyn is no longer the Labour party leader - @Wtfdoipick?

FGS - they were, not they was. Oh, for an edit function!!

Sean2001

I'm fully aware that Corbyn is no longer the leader and its now Starmer, however he was the leader at the last General election and would still be had he won that election. That's why I expressed things the way I did not because I'm out of touch but because I am aware.

And doubt you've even been to the bl*y red wall.

It really doesn't pay to make assumptions. I grew up in a household where you went to bed early or sat in the dark if there wasn't 50p to put in the meter.

You are entitled to hold whatever opinions you like but perhaps you could be more respectful of people who hold different views.

I think the problems go way too deep to be covered by 'people blaming labour'. Wish to god I had a solution because these are extremely worrying times and the veneer of democracy and the rule of law is so thin now that it is in danger of disappearing if something doesn't change.
I expected more of Starmer. I had viewed him as serious, intelligent and thoughtful, but he has shown himself to be just as silly and vacuous as most politicians of any party. So I do blame him to an extent.
Yes I also blame tory voters because Johnson is simply not a serious, responsible person and I don't think he should be in charge of a piss up in a brewery, never mind a country.
However, FPTP gives Tories a widening advantage in terms of votes to seats ratios and it is very difficult in many constituencies to do anything useful with one's vote. I live in a marginal so my vote counts a little and so i have previously voted against the tories. But now that politics seems to have become an intellectual desert where apparently I'm some kind of trump supporting racist transphobe for understanding biology and believing in feminism, it's very very difficult to vote at all.
I don't want identity politics. I want thoughtful, intelligent, serious policies that look at what I consider to be unsustainable economic libertarianism that is making the super rich richer and everyone else poorer. I literally don't give a shit about whether some bloke on twitter is upset by me having both a cervix and an opinion. Why on earth Labour (or the greens or some libdems) think them shouting at me will make me vote for them I don't know.
I want politics to stop being about liars and bullies talking shit on twitter, and become serious about the economy, the law, health, education and things that actually affect the lives of the majority of people.

On the responses relating to policies to persuade people to vote for non-Tory parties, there's only one concrete answer I can see so far.

And that is, that a party needs to understand and support what being biologically female is (not cis, not transgender, not any other current jargon). As part of that, they need to ensure that women (cis women as the current jargon has it) have protected access to women-only spaces (loos, prisons, rape crisis centres, etc). (I hate the jargon, and the potential impact of those spaces no longer being women only, I just can't think of any other way to express it that will make it as clear as possible in the current climate.)

Is my understanding correct, and is that the only policy, or are there other policies that non-Tory parties would need to have in place to persuade voters to support them?

Labour are still unelectable.

@Gilmoregale for me it's that and a credible policy for combatting climate change. There's more I'd like but those are my non negotiable. Which means I wont be voting at the next election for the first time ever.

OP, I voted conservative at the last election. I am not a fan of Boris Johnson, but I agreed with more Tory policies than Labour’s. I also felt deeply disturbed by the antisemitism within Labour and Corbyn’s handling of it. The senior members of the Labour party did not appear to have the basic skills needed to run a country. When pushed, for example, on free student fees, Corbyn seemed to change his position. I also am concerned about Labour’s refusal to recognise women’s rights in the current trans / gender debate, whereas the Tories were actually listening to women’s concerns. I suppose I could blame Labour for my decision. They have an awful lot of work to do to win over the non-Labour British public, and they don’t appear to be trying.

So I'm genuinely curious: in a world where COVID-19 has changed the global landscape somewhat and climate change is undeniable even in the wealthy west, what would make floating voters cast their votes for a party that isn't the Tories?

@Gilmoregale

I really dont think most need that much. Floating voters dont trust politicians to do what they say anyway. So we don't need 100s of great policies. We only need a couple of universal policies which we feel they have committed enough to that we can at least try to hold them to it, or can berate them when they don't.

Ie. last time the Torys did 1. Brexit and 2. NHS and 3. Development of the Midlands and North

Last time Labour had a million policies of which loads were good, but half were contentious (identity/ woke politics) and they hadn't decided a direction on leave/remain. It was impossible to know what you were actually voting for.