To be really sick of people blaming Labour for the Tories

[daimbarsatemydogsbone]

WTAF? It's a Tory government doing this stuff, yet rather than try voting for someone else, people are tripping over themselves to bleat on about weak leader, lack of opposition etc
If a "strong leader" is some twat like Boris then I won't be able to vote Labour. For now and in the last few elections, I haven't needed some Boris-alike twat at the helm to convince me to Labour, nor should anyone else.

Fair enough if you are an actual Tory and would vote for a dead horse with a blue rosette but anyone who is a floating voter - how much more shit do the Tories need to be for you to stop blaming Labour for them?

And no, Labour are not viewed as being worse. No party could be. Other than something run by the likes of Nigel Farage perhaps.

I think this is a textbook example of what is called "being in denial".

@HateIsNotGood

YANBU - it's completely the Labour Party's own fault for who they are now, certainly not the Tories' fault.

I think you meant YABU

@Hotcuppatea

I blame Labour for throwing women under the bus and forcing me to even consider voting Tory. Life long Labour voter here but I refuse to give my vote to a party that thinks men are entitled to women's spaces, sports and words. Just no.

Fair enough - but would you vote Conservative?

And if so - why?

@Doingtheboxerbeat

This thread is so depressing 😞 and I know I am part of the problem but I couldn't ever bring myself to vote Tories - no matter what.

That sounds a bit like you are in the grips of a 'Tory Evil, Labour Good' cult.

@Againstmachine

The SNP has also helped the torys remain in power, due to seats that used to go to labour going to SNP.

History might well say that the SNP's greatest contribution to UK politics wasn't an independent Scotland, but to have destroyed the Labour Party as a serious political force.

I'd rather wealthy, corrupt douchebags, than violent antisemitic misogynists.

Give me a credible Labour and I'll vote for it with red balloons on.

It annoys me, yes, and I have never voted Tory and don't intend to.

But you're being hugely naive if you don't think Labour has a part to play here and the reason why there are so many floating voters is that people are sick and tired of being told that they have to vote Labour purely not to be a Tory.

A party with any vision or credibility would not simply rely on kneejerking to branding the other party as a bunch of wankers and expecting that to carry it.

A party that expects to get elected needs to present a credible opposition to the government and a clear manifesto, not to disappear up its own arse with in-fighting and going down irrelevant rabbit holes.

A party whose manifesto basically consists of shouting "Tory scum" at anyone who questions its policies or effectiveness and has no credible alternative policies has no right to expect people to vote for it. And I speak as someone who has consistently voted Labour (and will probably do so with an increasingly heavy heart at the next election).

@Sean2001 If the conservatives are so bad! If!!

And no, Labour are not viewed as being worse. No party could be. Other than something run by the likes of Nigel Farage perhaps.

Oh right, that's why their die hard supporters, who would always vote Labour no matter what without even listening to anyone's policies, not even Labour's, couldn't bring themselves to vote for them this time?

When the people who would traditionally have voted for a red rosette stuck to a dog turd no questions asked cannot bring themselves to vote for you then you are doing something very very wrong. And continuing to blame the electorate for getting it wrong will only dig that hole even deeper.

Labour needs to shut up and listen. Bin the wanky woke shit. Bin the 1970's Socialist worker selling crusties with the chip on their shoulder. Bin Corbyn and everyone associated with him (Especially abacus Abbott) and get focused on proper policies

I have been thinking about how I can try to sum this up; because voting for me is all about feelings - mainly because I dont trust any of them to do what they say they will so really its about a gut instinct.

As a floating voter who voted Tory last election (who has never voted against the majority). If I can sum up my feelings in the last election it would be that I was treading water off shore in an already choppy sea. I can see a huge fuck off storm rolling in and I have to make a decision.

The tories to me represented a predictable current. They are quite consistently awful in a predictable way. I am going to have to swim bloody hard to get back to shore but its probably doable and hopefully I wont drown.

Labour on the other hand was completely unpredictable. To me they looked like a riptide of which direction I had no idea where it would take me. Yes they may have taken me straight back to shore, but they also may have taken me 20 more miles out to sea. The momentum and main party labour divide is confusing; it seemed to me half of labour are hell bent on going one direction and the other half hell bent on other. Its a gamble I wasn't willing to make.

I hope that makes some sense to Labour voters who don't really understand floating voters. We are gut voters. We generally hate everyone. And really it keeps boiling down to least worse option.
Which last election for me was:

• vote for 1 group you hate
• vote for an amalgamation of two groups you hate, which also hate each other.

I really hope Labour unites and comes back to reflect the average working voter. Because I am pretty sure most people think its time for a change. We have had the Torys for ever now.

So all those saying Labour needs to make itself relevant to voters and have relatable policies policies (for 66 million people, or at least the ones entitled to vote), what ARE those policy areas, and how CAN it make itself relevant enough, under an FPTP system, to get into power?

After all, it took 17 years last time before people had had enough of the Tory approach to the world and even then it was Blair so we've presumably got a few more years to go yet of Boris's best attempts. I can't see PR ever happening in England in my lifetime, sadly.

So I'm genuinely curious: in a world where COVID-19 has changed the global landscape somewhat and climate change is undeniable even in the wealthy west, what would make floating voters cast their votes for a party that isn't the Tories?

@Cheerychirpy

Many, many people loathed Jeremy Corbin and his vile anti Semitic, terrorist supporting views. His maths literally did not add up either. He was a joke. I voted Labour, but many didn’t because of him and him only. He and his supporters are why we have the Tory government we have now.

No, brexit policy is why we have the Tory government we have now.

The CP is pragmatic about voters.

The LP are ideologies who tell voters who don't buy in that they are racists who don't know where their bread is buttered, and please not to vote for them. They've long ago abandoned any real economic leftism to the point that they disparage many who still appreciate that approach.

So yeah, I would be inclined to blame them for that fact that so many people who would like to vote for a workers party think the CP is a better bet.

Because right now I'm reduced to voting for the person who will correctly define what a woman is. Who will say no to men in women's jails, who knows what sex is. If my Tory candidate at the next election can do this, they'll get my vote. The Labour sitting MP can't do this.

I really don't think many people in Labour realise what a big fucking existentialist deal this is for women. Brexit might have won the Conservatives the last election, but it is this massive issue that will keep Labour out for ever more unless they have a major rethink.

There was a lot of entryism under Corbyn and its wrecked the party. The SWP need to go back to the shadows and Labour need to embrace reality and the centre ground again or they are going to be in perpetual opposition.

What is so fucking great about the Labour Party post Gordon Brown that gives its members the audacity to sneer at Blair?

I agree, I find this staggering. Blair won 3 GE. I remember him being interviewed about the Gulf war and he said that regardless of what people said they thought about it they still elected a Labour government twice afterwards. I'm not a fan and I didn't vote for him but for the current Labour party to disavow the only man who has led them to victory since 1974 seems bizarre.

@DerAlteMann

I'll not vote for any party that refuses to implement proportional representation in Parliamentary elections. As far as I'm concerned there is no difference between the Tories and Labour. Both want to stick with First Past the Post proving that when the chips are down both put the good of the party before the good of the country.

Actually you make an excellent point.

[quote user1471447863]**@Sean2001* If* the conservatives are so bad! If!!

And no, Labour are not viewed as being worse. No party could be. Other than something run by the likes of Nigel Farage perhaps.

Oh right, that's why their die hard supporters, who would always vote Labour no matter what without even listening to anyone's policies, not even Labour's, couldn't bring themselves to vote for them this time?

When the people who would traditionally have voted for a red rosette stuck to a dog turd no questions asked cannot bring themselves to vote for you then you are doing something very very wrong. And continuing to blame the electorate for getting it wrong will only dig that hole even deeper.

Labour needs to shut up and listen. Bin the wanky woke shit. Bin the 1970's Socialist worker selling crusties with the chip on their shoulder. Bin Corbyn and everyone associated with him (Especially abacus Abbott) and get focused on proper policies[/quote]
Have you ever voted Labour?

@FourTeaFallOut

We need proportional representation to make it a more democratic process

And yet only a decade ago 60% of people couldn't even be arsed to voted in a referendum on the matter and of those who did, the majority wanted to keep things as they were.

AV is not proportional representation.

Quite bizarre this. Jeremy Corbyn - a name which many of his critics on here seem unable to even spell - is neither a friend of terrorists nor an antisemite. Those claims were made by an establishment which included the centre-left part of the Labour Party to prevent the UK experiencing the beneficial effects of societal-focused policies and preserve policies which enable corruption and theft from the people. JC was going to blow that sh1t out the water and the establishment could not tolerate it and used their various propaganda to spin a story of toxicity.

@FourTeaFallOut

That is down to people who voted Conservative. No one else.

People who voted Labour all their lives voted Conservative in the last election. Entire areas where previously you couldn't say Tory out loud without somone spitting on the ground returned a Conservative mp for the first time in the last election.

The sheer arrogance to think Labour didn't do anything wrong and it was, in fact, the electorate who was wrong will be exactly the reason why Labour won't win the next election either, unless they sort themselves out.

Round my way, not that long ago it would have been a lottery win if you'd put £1 on the Tories clean sweeping the area.

Amazing really what happens when a party offers to do what the voters want not just patronise them from London.

You don't vote for a party because they are not someone else.

You vote for them because they have ideas and policies and above all you know what you're getting.

I don't blame Labour for the Tories being in power but ultimately if all non-Tories could get their act together and come up with a credible alternative then they'd get elected. Until then people will just stick with what they know - be it the Tories in Westminster or the SNP in Scotland. It doesn't matter how bad they are if there is no alternative.

Cameron- I haven't broken any rules
Paterson- As above
Johnson- Arcuri I'm innocent
Johnson -Flat I'm innocent
Gove- Silence (contracts for friends)
Patel - I'm a victim
Francois - Cover up
Cummings- I can do WTF I want
Raab - I did nothing wrong
Cabinet- Laws don't apply to us

@ChiefInspectorParker The only reason I say "And even then it was Blair" is because, compared to the socialist principles that led to the Labour party being founded, he was relatively right wing, as politics in this country had moved so far to the right (as I then thought - never thought it would go quite as far right as it is now). I remember the years when his Labour party were in power as being happy and hopeful, and he was a charismatic leader who could hold his own on the world stage with other vessels of apparent power...

@Pazuzu "Amazing really what happens when a party offers to do what the voters want not just patronise them from London". I have my own opinion on how many of those promises will actually be kept, based on this government's track record and their amazing levels of mendacity, so I'm looking forward to future broadcasts from that sudden epicentre of the North East, Hartlepoool Marina....

I grew up in one of the bigger cities up there, and to say my jaw was on the floor at the way Blyth Valley, Hartlepool and others voted doesn't really convey my astonishment. I do vaguely recall Newcastle voting in a Lib Dem council once when the existing Labour one had been particularly stupid, but I think it only was the once, as Labour pulled their socks up afterwards.

If the Tories actually follow through on those promises I'll be delighted for the areas concerned, but I'm really not holding my breath. If anyone wants to see how concerned Tory MPs really are about their constituents, taking a look at the current headlines about just how many of them have second jobs, consultancies and God knows what else should finally make the penny drop about their real motivations. (Clue - it won't. Devoted supporters and the Tory media - which is most of it - will still make excuses for them.)

I've even recently heard comments from those Red Wall locations along the lines of, "Oh, well the Tories are great because they've given us food banks and under Labour there weren't no food banks" and that's usually the point at which I just give up and bury my nose in a vat of artisan gin.

The only sensible solution, since the non-Tory parties will not play nicely together, is Proportional Representation, but no party that gets into power under the First Past the Post system is ever going to introduce PR, or even be in favour of it.

Similar to others I won’t vote for champagne socialist Labour because of self ID/momentum and the repeated failure to engage with the public. The contempt shown for those who don’t subscribe to the gender bullshit. Nope.

@LemonSwan

I have been thinking about how I can try to sum this up; because voting for me is all about feelings - mainly because I dont trust any of them to do what they say they will so really its about a gut instinct.

As a floating voter who voted Tory last election (who has never voted against the majority). If I can sum up my feelings in the last election it would be that I was treading water off shore in an already choppy sea. I can see a huge fuck off storm rolling in and I have to make a decision.

The tories to me represented a predictable current. They are quite consistently awful in a predictable way. I am going to have to swim bloody hard to get back to shore but its probably doable and hopefully I wont drown.

Labour on the other hand was completely unpredictable. To me they looked like a riptide of which direction I had no idea where it would take me. Yes they may have taken me straight back to shore, but they also may have taken me 20 more miles out to sea. The momentum and main party labour divide is confusing; it seemed to me half of labour are hell bent on going one direction and the other half hell bent on other. Its a gamble I wasn't willing to make.

I hope that makes some sense to Labour voters who don't really understand floating voters. We are gut voters. We generally hate everyone. And really it keeps boiling down to least worse option.
Which last election for me was:

• vote for 1 group you hate
• vote for an amalgamation of two groups you hate, which also hate each other.

I really hope Labour unites and comes back to reflect the average working voter. Because I am pretty sure most people think its time for a change. We have had the Torys for ever now.

Sorry - but I think this reads as you being too lazy to do any research or follow what's going on in the world. Failure to look around you and outside of your own little bubble.

A gut feeling on the day - predictability?

Would you vote again for this government and their dishonestly, sleaze/slime/corruption ... because it is predictable ...?