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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Cultural appropriation?

183 replies

Xmassprout · 07/11/2021 21:17

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

OP posts:
BonesInTheOcean · 07/11/2021 21:19

eh?

what is the dance? where is it from?
Flamenco uses fans

SparklyLeprechaun · 07/11/2021 21:22

Funny that, when you said fan and dance I thought Chinese fan dancing, bellydancing didn't even cross my mind.
Surely lots of cultures have dances that involve fans?

Original poster
Xmassprout · 07/11/2021 21:29

These fans have the long silks tails, they're also called veil fans . It's just when looking on YouTube everything that seems to be coming up for these types of fan is bellydancing

There are other cultures that use fans. I wanted to choreo an aerial routine using the fans for a portion, but just don't know if it would be seen as cultural appropriation for using something that is used in cultural dances

OP posts:
Watchingyou2sleezes · 07/11/2021 21:39

Get a grip. Do what you want. If you bow down and crumble to the nonsensical idea of cultural appropriation then you deserve jumping on.

crosstalk · 07/11/2021 22:23

Overthinking. Just crack on. You are using fans which are part of every culture (including European with a language of its own) for a dance routine. If someone objects, ask why.

There's cultural appropriation and ... shall we all stop judo, yoga - and disallow other cultures from playing Western music or ballet?

ABCeasyasdohrayme · 07/11/2021 22:26

@Watchingyou2sleezes

Get a grip. Do what you want. If you bow down and crumble to the nonsensical idea of cultural appropriation then you deserve jumping on.
Cultural appropriation is definitely a thing, a very harmful thing, it isn't a 'nonsensical idea'.

What you are planning doesn't sound like cultural appropriation at all though op. It sounds fab actually.

Embroidery · 07/11/2021 23:02

Ffs! Like pp said Get a grip.

Tal45 · 08/11/2021 10:17

Cultural appropriation has gone way too far. Big organisations taking tribal designs and acting as if they designed them themselves and making huge profit from them - not ok. Taking things from other cultures and using them to mock those cultures - not ok. Beyond that IMO it gets ridiculous. I really don't see the issue with you using a fan with a tail in a lovely aerial dance.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 10:31

Belly dance as exotic sexual entertainment for men (as opposed to a traditional dance by women for women celebrating the female body and sexuality and childbirth) is already peak cultural appropriation, so as long as you’re not trying to create some kind of sexy Salome character to play on that stereotype (which it doesn’t sound like you are) then you should be ok.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 10:34

Sorry I didn’t finish- but to be sure, the last people you should be asking are the daily mail reading “ffs get a grip cultural appropriation doesn’t exist” crowd here on mumsnet. Why don’t you find someone who is a traditional belly dancer (no, not a white woman with dreadlocks who does belly dance between charging her crystals) and ask her? The people who own the culture get to say whether it’s appropriate, not Mumsnet Confused

Naunet · 08/11/2021 11:11

I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many

Ugh? Why do they single out white women?! Doesn’t make any sense at all.

Helloise · 08/11/2021 11:30

@Naunet

I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many

Ugh? Why do they single out white women?! Doesn’t make any sense at all.

The same reason they would single out white women for appropriating a Native American traditional dance in a sexy music video, or for appropriating Yoga and becoming a teacher without understanding the spiritual background, or for wearing a native headdress and/or a Bindi to a music festival where they do lots of drugs. So weird that it's always white women who do this, isn't it?

Taking part in traditions that aren't your own can be amazing and beautiful when done respectfully in association and with permission from the people who own those traditions. How is that hard to understand? Why is what you take from this "ugh it's so hard being a white woman?"

elodie77 · 08/11/2021 12:20

Helloise I agree with you. There appears to be, as you say, quite a crowd of Daily Mail readers on MN these days who start off spouting transphobic comments in the name of women's rights but who often also make racist comments such as denying cultural appropriation and make themselves as white women somehow the victims, who complain about 'woke culture' and someone even posted about 'benefit scroungers' here recently.

Naunet · 08/11/2021 12:26

The same reason they would single out white women for appropriating a Native American traditional dance in a sexy music video, or for appropriating Yoga and becoming a teacher without understanding the spiritual background, or for wearing a native headdress and/or a Bindi to a music festival where they do lots of drugs. So weird that it's always white women who do this, isn't it?

Taking part in traditions that aren't your own can be amazing and beautiful when done respectfully in association and with permission from the people who own those traditions. How is that hard to understand? Why is what you take from this "ugh it's so hard being a white woman?"

So no Chinese person has ever belly danced? Is that what you’re trying to say? Only white women are ever guilty of this?
What a load of shit.

TheKeatingFive · 08/11/2021 12:28

Nobody owns fans OP. Don't worry.

TrickyD · 08/11/2021 12:28

@Naunet

I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many

Ugh? Why do they single out white women?! Doesn’t make any sense at all.

The whole thing is crazy.
What about black men dancing a Viennese Waltz, or Europeans of any sex dancing a Samba, Tango or Pasa Doble?
Naunet · 08/11/2021 12:30

@elodie77

Helloise I agree with you. There appears to be, as you say, quite a crowd of Daily Mail readers on MN these days who start off spouting transphobic comments in the name of women's rights but who often also make racist comments such as denying cultural appropriation and make themselves as white women somehow the victims, who complain about 'woke culture' and someone even posted about 'benefit scroungers' here recently.
Ahh yes, because men appropriating women is just fine of course 🤣 Such a huge double standard.
Naunet · 08/11/2021 12:34

The whole thing is crazy
What about black men dancing a Viennese Waltz, or Europeans of any sex dancing a Samba, Tango or Pasa Doble?

The dumbest thing I’ve ever seen on this topic was an idiot white American teacher saying she was going to stop teaching Spanish because it was appropriating Mexican culture 🙄
She’s seemed oblivious that the Spanish language comes from Spain, ie, a white country.

TheKeatingFive · 08/11/2021 12:43

The people who own the culture get to say whether it’s appropriate, not Mumsnet

So no one on MN ever 'owns' a culture then? Who gets to have a culture and who doesn't?

What percentage of that culture do you have to be before you can 'own' it?

How can you demonstrate that your own culture didn't appropriate it off another culture to begin with (because that is, of course, how the evolution of all human culture works)?

So many questions.

Helpsortmylife · 08/11/2021 12:49

I don't want to live in a world where people to stay within the rigidly enforced cultural/ leisure/ aesthetic boundaries of the happenstance of their birth. Its great when we learn about and share each other's traditions and cultures and enjoy them.

That's worlds away from pretending to be something you are not (such as a Native American) to sell pseudo-native rituals is fraud and not on.

Embroidery · 08/11/2021 12:51

Who owns the western culture that is appropriated across the world?

LaBellina · 08/11/2021 12:55

White women doing belly dancing is cultural appropriation? Get a grip.
Belly dancing has since long been a part of Greek culture.

UsedUpUsername · 08/11/2021 13:00

@Helloise

So weird that it's always white women who do this, isn't it?

Well it’s not, but that’s probably because you aren’t very familiar with what’s going on in the wider world.

Japanese people get married in fake Christian ceremonies with fake priests, for instance. It’s just fashion and no one cares.

Helpsortmylife · 08/11/2021 13:03

So weird that it's always white women who do this, isn't it?

Its not. Its just that in a misogynistic culture you only pay attention to what women are doing and attack them for it. Whilst men are allowed to carry on undisturbed.

AllTheWeetabix · 08/11/2021 13:03

White women won’t be able to breathe soon.

Absolutely ridiculous.