Cultural appropriation?

[Xmassprout]

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

@elodie77 and @peachgreen 🙌🏽 Some things would rather be hidden, obfuscated, glossed over, minimised...

I think there's an interesting conversation about oppressed groups oppressing. I remember being so disappointed in Malcolm X and Gandhi when I heard about aspects of their treatment of women. Being so perceptive of class analysis and then ignoring oppression in their own homes. It tarnishes the message of freedom when it's only freedom for men.

It's actually understandable in people who don't get it (have intermalised misogyny or racism or homophobia). But in people who do get it, but just for them, it's depressing.

And yes, of course white women are involved in oppression and benefit from it. I'm not sure you can argue they organised colonisation without being able to own property or decide who they married. But since then it's clearly benefited us.

Therefore, a woman doing it without the mans consent, on rare occasions, isn't relevant. Because thats not systemic oppression

I think the idea that generations of women across countries have been performing these practices against their will, is just not believable. And it doesn't understand how powerful culture and socialisation is. Women would have believed they were doing the right thing. They were both subject to and continuers of the systematic oppression.

Dance and music forms don't belong to anyone. We could ban Prokofiev's Dance of the Knights from Romeo and Juliet on the basis that Sergei was neither English like the playwright nor Italian like the setting/characters... or is Gergiev OK to conduct it since he like Prokofiev is Russian, but the London Symphony Orchestra had no right to be performing it...?

Should Maya Plitsetskaya, the Russian Jewish ballerina, be admonished for performing Frenchman Béjart's chorey to Frenchman Ravel's Spanish-inspired Boléro, or did she in fact sanctify it when she herself acquired Spanish citizenship after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

The whole idea of cultural appropriation along with 'only white people can appropriate' is about systemic racisim.

If we're talking about racism, then let's talk about racism.

We don't need a woolly, ill-defined term like Cultural Appropriation to distract from the actual issues at hand.

Plisetskaya*

m.youtube.com/watch?v=SsSALaDJuN4

When it comes to matters of race, white people are the dominant power (in the Western world) regardless of gender

Good god, white Eastern Europeans have been oppressed forever, by people of all sorts of different races. And closer to home, wasn’t Ireland colonised by the UK for hundreds of years? They were just as oppressed as any other colonised people, no?

Is wearing the tribal headdress shown here cultural appropriation? Is it only so if it is made by a big organisation making big profits or if you wear it to a music festival where drugs are consumed? Is it only OK to do it with permission of or in association with a member of the tribe? Why do members of the tribe sell such things as souvenirs to visitors? Who is it oppressing?

And no, a group without power cannot oppress another group.

I get what you're saying, but surely that depends on the tool of oppression. White people - including women - can oppress people of colour. Men - including black men - can oppress women.

It’s really irritating to try and have an adult conversation about this and continuously getting called racist for it, even though I’ve said nothing racist.

I didn't call you racist?

Oh my goodness, the arrogance in this! You clearly see yourself amongst the judges and arbiters of what is and is not acceptable for others to do.

Apologies, I should have been clearer - I meant check with the relevant group. I actually was going to add about MN not being a great place to ask as it's overwhelmingly white, iirc.

@jcyclops

Is wearing the tribal headdress shown here cultural appropriation? Is it only so if it is made by a big organisation making big profits or if you wear it to a music festival where drugs are consumed? Is it only OK to do it with permission of or in association with a member of the tribe? Why do members of the tribe sell such things as souvenirs to visitors? Who is it oppressing?

Sezane was selling a really cute blouse with some tartan-clad Scottish people in a really cartoony style (something you’d expect to see on a shortbread tin)

How DARE the French try to profit from Scottish culture!

Good god, white Eastern Europeans have been oppressed forever, by people of all sorts of different races. And closer to home, wasn’t Ireland colonised by the UK for hundreds of years? They were just as oppressed as any other colonised people, no?

Well again, there's a hierarchy. I actually live in Ireland and have an Irish daughter, and yes, absolutely Irish people have been oppressed by a colonising British force, but white Irish people still have power over Irish people of colour.

If you're English i"d play it safe if I were you and stick to Morris Dancing only.

@elodie77

not relevant to the UK at all, we’re different countries with different histories.

Colonialism not relevant to the UK at all?

What are you talking about? American links about American politics or history are not relevant to the UK. I made that very clear.

but white Irish people still have power over Irish people of colour.

As an Irish person, this feels like a distraction from useful argument, because until very recently there were almost no Irish people of colour.

A more interesting reflection on power dynamics in Ireland would be to look at oppression of Catholics by Protestants or the wholesale oppression of the travelling community. All white.

As for present day Ireland, I'd have a hard time justifying the view that Irish travellers have power over Irish people of colour. That wouldn't reflect the reality or historical power dynamics here at all. It would be a silly and irrelevant distraction.

@VincaMinor

If you're English i"d play it safe if I were you and stick to Morris Dancing only.

Just don't wear a boater hat and tuxedo. That would be Maurice dancing.

@peachgreen

And no, a group without power cannot oppress another group.

I get what you're saying, but surely that depends on the tool of oppression. White people - including women - can oppress people of colour. Men - including black men - can oppress women.

It’s really irritating to try and have an adult conversation about this and continuously getting called racist for it, even though I’ve said nothing racist.

I didn't call you racist?

Now days, yeah, absolutely, but historically? I think not.

I think the confusion is around the word oppression. To me the word oppression in this context, refers to systematic structures, not individual behaviour. But I guess that’s not how everyone sees it.

Apologies, I should have been clearer - I meant check with the relevant group. I actually was going to add about MN not being a great place to ask as it's overwhelmingly white, iirc

The relevant group? But how is that even possible? Ethnicities are not hive minds, any more than women are. There will be different views within an ethnicity on pretty much everything. Including whether a white teenage women should wear a chinese style dress to a prom, for example. Even in the unlikely event that each ethnicity were to set up a board where one could bring one's questions of ' is this appropriation?' to, they would still only be reflecting the views of those on the board.

@TheKeatingFive Yes, you're absolutely right - there are other power imbalances in those scenarios (which are, on balance, a bigger concern in Ireland) that aren't related to skin colour. Like you say, bringing Ireland into it is sort of an irrelevant distraction to the discussion at hand (although absolutely an interesting one).

@helpsortmylife Of course - but it's better than not doing anything, right?

I think the confusion is around the word oppression. To me the word oppression in this context, refers to systematic structures, not individual behaviour. But I guess that’s not how everyone sees it.

I see what you're saying. I would genuinely be interested in reading more research about how white women historically contributed to the oppression of Black people and ditto how Black men contributed to the oppression of women - like @MrsTerryPratchett pointed out, there are notable case studies. I suspect there would be evidence to support both arguments but it's not something I know enough about to be definitive either way.

OP your thread has turned into a really useful tool to reveal the blatant, ignorant racists - very handy!

Was in the theatre recently and someone had a fan.

@peachgreen

I think the confusion is around the word oppression. To me the word oppression in this context, refers to systematic structures, not individual behaviour. But I guess that’s not how everyone sees it.

I see what you're saying. I would genuinely be interested in reading more research about how white women historically contributed to the oppression of Black people and ditto how Black men contributed to the oppression of women - like @MrsTerryPratchett pointed out, there are notable case studies. I suspect there would be evidence to support both arguments but it's not something I know enough about to be definitive either way.

I guess I see it this way, historically speaking UK black men for example, could be accused of oppressing black women, right? However, if white men had decided that actually, black women were the best group of people ever, and they deserved all the rights white men already had, black men couldn’t have done anything to stop that, because they had no power themselves. Does that make sense?

So white women had no chance to stop colonisation, it was out of their hands. Did they benefit from it? Absolutely. But we’re they responsible for it? No.

[quote peachgreen]@helpsortmylife Of course - but it's better than not doing anything, right?[/quote]
If you have got to the point of thinking ' can I use a fan', I think you need to question the entire concept you have tbh.