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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cultural appropriation?

183 replies

Xmassprout · 07/11/2021 21:17

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

OP posts:
PlanktonsComputerWife · 09/11/2021 09:18

I don't know. But the notion of cultural appropriation does seem rooted in monoculturalism.

I see a place for criticising Lego and Disney for exploiting Māori and Pasifika culture for figurines, that awful Moana movie and so on.

But haranguing people for exploring dance forms? How is that not an anti-culture stance?

oldwhyno · 09/11/2021 09:29

"cultural appropriation" is almost always bullshit and it can usually fuck right off.

We live in a modern multi-cultural society. A true melting pot. People need to get over it.

So YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

Xenia · 09/11/2021 10:06

I wonder who can have a monopoly on the work suit for men in that case. Perhaps we can start only allowing British people to wear it to work if their ancestors are from the right place.

These kinds of things which divide us up rather than join us always tend to be a bad thing.

Impier · 09/11/2021 11:56

This whole conversation is utterly, barking mad, with people tying themselves in linguistic knots trying to justify their own internal bigotry. It's fascinating.

Helpsortmylife · 09/11/2021 11:58

@Impier

This whole conversation is utterly, barking mad, with people tying themselves in linguistic knots trying to justify their own internal bigotry. It's fascinating.
The thing with comments like this, is its impossible to know which side you are talking about. Either side can, I am sure, feel justified in looking at the other and finger pointing with this.
AlfonsoTheUnrepentant · 09/11/2021 12:54

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk guidelines.

elodie77 · 09/11/2021 13:01

Go on, Alfonso, why virtue signalling? Do you think I have no skin in the game? Unpick my post and explain what you disagree with and why.

ABCeasyasdohrayme · 09/11/2021 13:16

I totally agree with that post @elodie77. Not virtue signalling at all, just facts.

Helpsortmylife · 09/11/2021 13:18

@elodie77

Go on, Alfonso, why virtue signalling? Do you think I have no skin in the game? Unpick my post and explain what you disagree with and why.
Ok I will bite

There appears to be, as you say, quite a crowd of Daily Mail readers: You have no idea what papers anyone reads. This is base name-calling, immature and not worthy of respect.

on MN these days who start off spouting transphobic comments in the name of women's rights:

Standing up for women's rights, often the most marginalised women in prisons and refuges and homeless centres who are disproportionately likely to have suffered male violence, is women's rights. Women's rights are not limited or confined to where they don't bother anyone else. It is not women's place to be less safe for the sake of anyone else. Again, you have name called here without any evidence or argument. I don't respect that.

but who often also make racist comments such as denying cultural appropriation: People here are discussing what is and is not cultural appropriation. That is not racist, that is a discussion. The definition of racism is not people who have different understandings of theories and concepts around racism from you. Any movement will have a variety of views and opinions. Decrying people as racist for not having the same views as you is not really any different from when Catholics and Protestant oppressed each other as ' not being Chrisitians.' Surely we can move past that mentality?

and make themselves as white women somehow the victims, who complain about 'woke culture' and someone even posted about 'benefit scroungers' here recently: I am not even bothering to reply to the 'one person said once' type argument.

Women are complaining about a cultural movement which is removing any meaningful definition of woman and by removing that removing key rights that women fought hard for. I can't even begin to address the point about 'white women being victims' as you seem to enjoy stating this without argument or evidence. But the GC movement has many women and people of colour in it, so I have absolutely no idea why you are throwing this into the mix of the context of talking about GC women.

elodie77 · 09/11/2021 13:48

Helpsortmylife Thanks for your reply. I'm really tired so trying to answer you as best I can.

You have no idea what papers anyone reads. This is base name-calling, immature and not worthy of respect. Fair enough, though name-calling is commonplace here and I have often found myself ridiculed here when trying to be 'earnest'.

Standing up for women's rights, often the most marginalised women in prisons and refuges and homeless centres who are disproportionately likely to have suffered male violence, is women's rights. Women's rights are not limited or confined to where they don't bother anyone else. It is not women's place to be less safe for the sake of anyone else. Firstly I fundamentally believe that we as marginalised groups or as groups whose rights have been/are under threat should go against each other. I think we should help each other in fighting inequality and injustice. I might agree with much of what you have posted that I have quoted above, if I had more faith in this argument actually being about affirming women's rights which I think can be done without undermining the rights of other persecuted groups, but I have followed some of the conversations here on MN about trans/women's rights and much of it seems to me to be motivated by transphobia, especially when people resort to derogatory remarks about trans people or even appearing to question transsexualism, which to me shows up the bigotry at the heart of their resistance to trans rights.

People here are discussing what is and is not cultural appropriation. That is not racist, that is a discussion. The definition of racism is not people who have different understandings of theories and concepts around racism from you. Any movement will have a variety of views and opinions. Many of the comments here have not been discussion but comments trying to undermine criticism of cultural appropriation such as 'how ridiculous', 'the world has gone mad', 'wokery' and so on, to the point where a couple of posters effectively silenced a poster who I think is a person of colour. I think it is not for us as white women to define what racism and cultural appropriation are.

Women are complaining about a cultural movement which is removing any meaningful definition of woman and by removing that removing key rights that women fought hard for. I can't even begin to address the point about 'white women being victims' as you seem to enjoy stating this without argument or evidence. But the GC movement has many women and people of colour in it, so I have absolutely no idea why you are throwing this into the mix of the context of talking about GC women. You have misunderstood what I meant by 'white women make themselves the victims'. That was in reference to the cultural appropriation argument. Many women of colour have argued that in conversations about race or cultural appropriation white women often get defensive, accuse people of colour of being aggressive and accusatory or use tears to silence the debate.

See here. www.bitchmedia.org/article/white-tears-brown-scars-ruby-hamad-white-feminism-interview

elodie77 · 09/11/2021 13:50

meant that we shouldn't go against each other.

As I said am tired.

Xenia · 09/11/2021 15:48

The one thing back and white women can agree on is that a woman's place is in the wrong and in most times and most stages men will screw us over

Helpsortmylife · 09/11/2021 16:07

Firstly I fundamentally believe that we as marginalised groups or as groups whose rights have been/are under threat should go against each other. I think we should help each other in fighting inequality and injustice I think a lot of women who are GC would agree with this, with some very much staring out being part of pro- trans campaigns. Things changed when we were told that literally any man could say they were a woman and that they were literally a woman in all circumstances.
You can surely see the safeguarding concerns with that? When you say 'we;' should fight for each other's rights - that is not what is happening. Women are being told ( aggressively with threats and real world consequences such as losing work and the ability to support themselves and their families) that they have to give up their rights and safety for another group. Its only working that way around. Not the other way around. That's where the sexism shows. And GC women object to that.

but I have followed some of the conversations here on MN about trans/women's rights and much of it seems to me to be motivated by transphobia, especially when people resort to derogatory remarks about trans people or even appearing to question transsexualism, which to me shows up the bigotry at the heart of their resistance to trans rights
Firstly, you really have to make up you mind on the issues raised and arguments and evidence presented, not on your views of the people making them. The motivation of individuals does not change the facts of the case. I have had people who said things to me with bad intent, but on reflection I have realised there was truth in what they said and have been helped by their comments and insight. The women on the sex and gender board are not a hive mind, there is a thread at the moment where they are discussing this very topic! And I have to say, I really cannot see how women objecting to male sex offenders in women's prison's , or women having to compete against male bodied cage fighters is based on anything other than a women's rights issue. For my part, I am very tired of people objecting to the alleged motivations when the arguments and cases themselves show you that this is clearly a women's rights issue.

Many of the comments here have not been discussion but comments trying to undermine criticism of cultural appropriation such as 'how ridiculous', 'the world has gone mad', 'wokery' and so on, to the point where a couple of posters effectively silenced a poster who I think is a person of colour Ok, I get your point, but in this case that might have been because the OP was about someone wanting to use a fan in their dance routine. Most people can see that a fan is inoffensive and I guess are frustrated with the idea that they might be expected to question or be 'held to account' for innocuous things such as that.

I think it is not for us as white women to define what racism and cultural appropriation are Its not about being a white woman (not sure what sex has to do with this here either). This is contentious issue, within communities of people of colour too. Each individual has a responsibility to listen and consider points of view, but at the end of the day all any of us can do is form our own view. No matter what the subject. There are different view of what feminism is amongst women and what racism is amongst PoC. I wouldnt' expect a man to subscribe to my view of feminism because I was a woman. I would expect him to listen and consider, but he may agree with another woman's view of feminism.

Many women of colour have argued that in conversations about race or cultural appropriation white women often get defensive, accuse people of colour of being aggressive and accusatory or use tears to silence the debate Tbh I can see why people get upset when phrases like ' white women's tears' are used. I find that a deeply offensive and misogynistic term and it does bother me that in the name of 'progressiveness' we are finding new ways to recycle old misogynies.

DeeCeeCherry · 11/11/2021 02:44

Naunet
I’m just curious as to why women are held accountable for the actions of men, when women had no power themselves. It’s a thought experiment, that’s all. It’s makes sense in terms of modern racism that women are just as accountable, but not historically

Historically -
White women had the power to get Black men killed for looking at them. The power to claim assault without a shred of proof, resulting in faux trial and death.

DeeCeeCherry · 11/11/2021 02:55

Tbh I can see why people get upset when phrases like ' white women's tears' are used

Really?

Try bring on the receiving end. Microaggressions at work, you answer back to rude undermining colleagues, immediately the tears start. & the Black Woman gets the aggressive label.

WWT absolutely is a thing. I'm glad its more so recognised nowadays. Its a form of workplace bullying and spitefully aiming to ruin a woman's career and finances solely based on her being non-White.

HappyDays40 · 11/11/2021 04:16

I find the whole appropriation thing massively confusing what is okay and and what is not. Really hate the thought of offending people. I love yoga and all sorts of music and dance. I can't dance for anything! Is the fact I do yoga offensiveConfused

Nyxly · 11/11/2021 05:12

@HappyDays40

I find the whole appropriation thing massively confusing what is okay and and what is not. Really hate the thought of offending people. I love yoga and all sorts of music and dance. I can't dance for anything! Is the fact I do yoga offensiveConfused
In my opinion theres a really fine line and it's so fine people can't see it but also are being set up to fail.

Again, my opinion, is that doing yoga is fine. But I do think you need to should being doing research. Yoga isn't just stretching. However, styling yourself as a 'yogi' without actually dedicating yourself to understanding the cultural background and importance, making money and acting as though you do know all the back ground and spreading misinformation would be. Taking as an authority on it, would be

That's not to say a white person can not dedicated themselves and do it in an authentic way.

An example would be if a white person wore a Sari to attend a wedding within the Indian community, especially, at the families request and sought advice and guidance from those in the community....in my opinion this is fine.

Wearing one to dress up for Halloween is not.

As a mixed race person I span, 3 cultures and am respectful of them all. Despite appearing to only be part of one of them, I partake in them all.

Appropriation can only clearly be defined, in my opinion, if you know enough detail about a person to know if they are part of a culture (they could be by marriage, adoption etc) and know how they are managing it and how they have approached it.

Others have different opinions, though.

oldwhyno · 11/11/2021 11:38

I can't think of any part of my culture that I'm not happy to share with people from other cultures.

TheKeatingFive · 11/11/2021 11:44

Appropriation can only clearly be defined, in my opinion, if you know enough detail about a person to know if they are part of a culture (they could be by marriage, adoption etc) and know how they are managing it and how they have approached it.

Given that this is impossible to do in practical terms, couldn't we achieve the same end by simply not being racist, disrespectful or fraudulent about other people's cultures, without needing to bring in the concept of CA at all?

mustlovegin · 11/11/2021 11:53

Historically - White women had the power to get Black men killed for looking at them. The power to claim assault without a shred of proof, resulting in faux trial and death

In Britain, in 2021, anyone accused of committing an offence will go through a proper trial before getting convicted (whatever their race). Looking at someone is not a crime under most circumstances.

mustlovegin · 11/11/2021 11:57

I wonder who can have a monopoly on the work suit for men in that case. Perhaps we can start only allowing British people to wear it to work if their ancestors are from the right place

It's a bit puzzling that some believe only non-white groups can have a culture

Laquila · 11/11/2021 12:22

This thread is fascinating (and v confusing!)

I'm sorry if I've missed this elsewhere - I've RTFT but I'm a bit hazy now!...could anyone who believes racism is real but that cultural appropriation ISN'T pls explain why not? I'm not sure I understand how you get to the conclusion that it's not possible for a dominant or oppressive culture (or members of it) to offensively cherry-pick aspects of an oppressed culture to benefit themselves (e.g. culturally, financially), whilst still acknowledging racism exists?

Sorry, I've not phrased that very well - tired 😳

TheKeatingFive · 11/11/2021 12:42

I'm not sure I understand how you get to the conclusion that it's not possible for a dominant or oppressive culture (or members of it) to offensively cherry-pick aspects of an oppressed culture to benefit themselves (e.g. culturally, financially), whilst still acknowledging racism exists?

Not sure if this is what you're looking for, but I see most of what is problematic about CA as racism (or occasionally disrespect or fraud).

So I don't see the need for the very woolly / ill defined concept of CA. Just don't be racist or treat other cultures disrespectfully. Job done.

Xenia · 11/11/2021 12:53

Yoga is banned in some church halls as it is anti christian really and perhaps a pernicious evil not to be tolerated in a Christian country? It is all a can of worms.

elodie77 · 11/11/2021 12:55

TheKeatingFive I think it's important to name and call out specific behaviours rather than just say 'don't be racist' as most people would probably think they are not racist but still engage in behaviours which are felt as racist/exploitative/excluding by people of colour. I think it's about not excusing certain behaviours by pointing out they are racist and therefore not OK.

Not sure if this is a good example but I've recently highlighted how uncomfortable and angry I am at the subtle or unsubtle sexist jokes at work which were always dismissed as 'just banter' so a part of a certain workplace culture and impossible to challenge. The banter was done by people who would otherwise champion women's advancement in that line of work so the people would never consider themselves to be sexist.