Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Cultural appropriation?

183 replies

Xmassprout · 07/11/2021 21:17

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

OP posts:
elodie77 · 08/11/2021 17:48

For the record my arguments are:

  • Cultural appropriation by a dominant culture is very much a problem and denying it is a form of racism
  • Trying to disassociate yourself from the legacy of colonialism and slavery, which all people of Britain benefited from (and where complicit in) and continue to benefit from is either ignorant or shows your ingrained white privilege
  • White women's 'victimhood' oppresses, silences and excludes women of colour
Naunet · 08/11/2021 17:53

@elodie77

For the record my arguments are:
  • Cultural appropriation by a dominant culture is very much a problem and denying it is a form of racism
  • Trying to disassociate yourself from the legacy of colonialism and slavery, which all people of Britain benefited from (and where complicit in) and continue to benefit from is either ignorant or shows your ingrained white privilege
  • White women's 'victimhood' oppresses, silences and excludes women of colour
Ok, firstly, you mentioned slavery and Queen Victoria, so just to clear that up, Queen Victoria came into power in 1837. Slavery had been made illegal in 1833. Just an interesting fact.

Secondly, I’m not denying cultural appropriation exists, or the Britain has a history of colonising other countries, like many other countries do too, it was a popular thing to do sadly. And of course women benefited from that, I’ve already said this in a previous post.

What I was debating and interested in, is the idea that an oppressed group (in this case, women) can systematically oppress another group (colonised countries). If you say they did, (which by the way, I’m open to) then surely you have to demonstrate that they could have stopped it if they’d wanted to?

Naunet · 08/11/2021 17:56

White women's 'victimhood' oppresses, silences and excludes women of colour

Lastly, white women are native to Europe, we are fully entitled to talk about our history of being oppressed within Europe. It’s utterly bizarre to suggest we shouldn’t.

elodie77 · 08/11/2021 18:06

"Victoria reigned over the United Kingdom from 1837 until her death in 1901, a period marked by the unparalleled expansion of the British Empire, including continued expansion across what's now called Canada.

"Queen Victoria presided during some of the most brutal and expansive years of colonial history — when land was stolen the most, when things like the Indian Act [were] put into place," said Niigaan Sinclair, a Native studies professor at the University of Manitoba.

Adele Perry, the director of the Centre for Human Rights Research and a professor in the department of history at the U of M, says Queen Victoria and the British Empire had an "absolutely crucial role" in Canada's negotiation of treaties, residential schools and other systems that dispossessed Indigenous people.

In reality, the Crown oversaw boarding schools and mission schools that served to separate children from the Indigenous people of other parts of the British Empire, which served as examples for Canada's residential schools.

Victoria's legacy lives on through "terrible policies of violence that we still see happening today," Sinclair said, referring to government inaction when it comes to issues like poverty, violence and a lack of clean drinking water on First Nations."

Also this:

"The Slavery Abolition Act of 1833 formally freed 800,000 Africans who were then the legal property of Britain’s slave owners. What is less well known is that the same act contained a provision for the financial compensation of the owners of those slaves, by the British taxpayer, for the loss of their “property”. The compensation commission was the government body established to evaluate the claims of the slave owners and administer the distribution of the £20m the government had set aside to pay them off. That sum represented 40% of the total government expenditure for 1834. It is the modern equivalent of between £16bn and £17bn.

The compensation of Britain’s 46,000 slave owners was the largest bailout in British history until the bailout of the banks in 2009. Not only did the slaves receive nothing, under another clause of the act they were compelled to provide 45 hours of unpaid labour each week for their former masters, for a further four years after their supposed liberation. In effect, the enslaved paid part of the bill for their own manumission.

Slave ownership, it appears, was far more common than has previously been presumed. Many of these middle-class slave owners had just a few slaves, possessed no land in the Caribbean and rented their slaves out to landowners, in work gangs.These bit-players were home county vicars, iron manufacturers from the Midlands and lots and lots of widows. About 40% of the slave owners living in the colonies were women. Then, as now, women tended to outlive their husbands and simply inherited human property through their partner’s wills."

Naunet · 08/11/2021 18:16

??? I mean, this confirms what I said! I didn’t say colonisation had stopped, I said slavery had been made illegal.

Look I understand this is clearly an upsetting topic for you, but please stop rushing to paint me as some heartless baddie! I don’t think my question about if one systematically oppressed group can systematically oppress another, is that crazy. It’s simply just debating ideas, there’s no agenda or hate there. None of us alive today were responsible for what went on back then, not a single one of us, and I highly doubt anyone here would wish to see it happen again. All we can do is acknowledge and learn from the past and find the best way to move forward together.

TheLikesofMe · 08/11/2021 18:19

What about the African people who were sold by their own leaders to the Arab slave trade for centuries?

Are the descendants of those African leaders victims or should they be grouped with the with the descendants of the oppressors?

elodie77 · 08/11/2021 18:21

All we can do is acknowledge and learn from the past and find the best way to move forward together.

Good. Then stop denying that cultural appropriation is a problem.

Naunet · 08/11/2021 18:25

@elodie77

All we can do is acknowledge and learn from the past and find the best way to move forward together.

Good. Then stop denying that cultural appropriation is a problem.

For the third fucking time on this thread, I’m not, I’ve acknowledged it exists. 🙄

One last thing re Queen Victoria, during that time she actually had less and less power as the government took control - you know, the government that women couldn’t be part of….

bigvig · 08/11/2021 18:58

Not all black people are oppressed victims - what a patronising racist view that is. What about black leaders who sold their own people into slavery. What about Arab slave traders. What about the Japanese empire builders. Not all white people benefitted from colonisation - what about Poor Irish and Italian migrants living up to 4 families in a damp cellar. What about the poor houses and child prostitutes. Stop trying to simplify human existence.

Naunet · 08/11/2021 19:12

@bigvig

Not all black people are oppressed victims - what a patronising racist view that is. What about black leaders who sold their own people into slavery. What about Arab slave traders. What about the Japanese empire builders. Not all white people benefitted from colonisation - what about Poor Irish and Italian migrants living up to 4 families in a damp cellar. What about the poor houses and child prostitutes. Stop trying to simplify human existence.
Exactly. History is nuanced. Oppression of women was HUGE, that’s half of Europe in one go, but class was also a massive oppression point, as was European countries trying to colonise each other at certain points in history!

The Irish never colonised anyone, but still get lumped in with the “bad white people”.

It’s sad, because women in almost every country around the world have been oppressed at some point, and women of all races are sold into slavery today but instead of standing united, we’re arguing about if it’s ok to use a fan in a dance. That’s why I think a lot (NOT ALL) of cultural appropriation is first world bollocks.

Almostmenopausal · 08/11/2021 19:29

So by that logic, a bunch of white dance students doing a Bollywood dance would be 'seen as cultural appropriation!' Hmm

What the HELL have we turned into?????

HomeSliceKnowsBest · 08/11/2021 19:48

Who gives a crap? They are fans. Do whatever. Only utter arseholes bang on about cultural appropriation.

NannyOggsWhiskyStash · 08/11/2021 19:53

@elodie77

Helloise I agree with you. There appears to be, as you say, quite a crowd of Daily Mail readers on MN these days who start off spouting transphobic comments in the name of women's rights but who often also make racist comments such as denying cultural appropriation and make themselves as white women somehow the victims, who complain about 'woke culture' and someone even posted about 'benefit scroungers' here recently.
This. I loathe the transphobic element on MN, where the fuck did that come from? And do not get me started on the stealth boasting about mahoosive wages and private school ugh
Againstmachine · 08/11/2021 19:55

What about the African people who were sold by their own leaders to the Arab slave trade for centuries?

They were still selling Africans to America as well, Black Africans were heavily involved with supplying to the slave trade through various century's.

Againstmachine · 08/11/2021 19:58

A lot of cultural appropriation talk is load of bollocks, a woman wearing a Chinese dress (which in reality isn't very Chinese dress anyway) isn't cultural appropriation same as a black woman dieing her hair blond and straightening it, do you think Lisa on insta is really opressing anyone

Siameasy · 08/11/2021 20:00

Belly dancing is very popular in Turkey and the Ottomans were big mean colonisers so you are safe as the two cancel each other out Wink

PlanktonsComputerWife · 08/11/2021 20:04

@Siameasy

Belly dancing is very popular in Turkey and the Ottomans were big mean colonisers so you are safe as the two cancel each other out Wink
That's all very well, but that means that given Genghis Khan's antics we can all merrily Mongolian throat marble away, and the fact is I just can't.🎻
Againstmachine · 08/11/2021 20:05

Yep the ottomans loved a bit of colonising, and also explains the make ups in many countrys such as Albania and Yugoslavia

Xmassprout · 08/11/2021 20:16

Just to clarify, these are the fans I'm talking about

Thankyou everyone for your diverse opinions, even those just telling me to get a grip. Probably does seem really stupid to some people, I just tend to be a massive overthinker and worrier.

Cultural appropriation?
OP posts:
Siameasy · 08/11/2021 20:17

Also the Japanese enjoyed empire-building if you want to dress as Geisha go for it. In any case, the Japanese love things from other cultures and will probably be cancelled when N Americans realise this.
Currently, US internet using persons don’t even realise Japan tried to invade Hawaii. “What! A non-European colonial power?! Impossible. They’re meant to be oppressed victims according to me”

VladmirsPoutine · 08/11/2021 20:20

It is always white women pulling these stunts then crying when they inevitably get criticised for it. Rinse repeat.

MrsTerryPratchett · 08/11/2021 20:25

@VladmirsPoutine

It is always white women pulling these stunts then crying when they inevitably get criticised for it. Rinse repeat.
Do you mean doing the appropriation Vlad?
Keepitnerdy · 08/11/2021 20:28

Education is part of the journey between appropriation and appreciation <a class="break-all" href="http://m.middleeasterndance.net/?url=www%2Emiddleeasterndance%2Enet%2Fmovements%2Fprops%2Fotherprops%2Ffans%2Ehtml#2872" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">m.middleeasterndance.net/?url=www%2Emiddleeasterndance%2Enet%2Fmovements%2Fprops%2Fotherprops%2Ffans%2Ehtml#2872

Theluggage15 · 08/11/2021 20:30

Trans people are the biggest appropriators out there so very funny to see people moaning about transphobia. Although I’ve never seen that on mumsnet just people sticking up for women’s rights.

Againstmachine · 08/11/2021 20:34

Do you mean doing the appropriation Vlad?

My suspicion is that Vlad has culturally appropriated that name.