Cultural appropriation?

[Xmassprout]

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

@Embroidery

Who owns the western culture that is appropriated across the world?

Er... there's a pretty big difference between a colonial power's culture being forced on indigenous people and said colonial power picking and choosing elements of the indigenous culture to profit from...!

That said, this sounds fine OP. Tbh I'm not really sure why you would think it would be cultural appropriation, but it's always good to check if you're unsure.

Er... there's a pretty big difference between a colonial power's culture being forced on indigenous people and said colonial power picking and choosing elements of the indigenous culture to profit from...!

I don’t disagree with you here, but here’s a question for you. It was men who colonised other countries, women didn’t hold any power themselves, so surely it wasn’t possible for them to oppress others? Discriminate, sure, but men were responsible for oppression and colonisation. So why must women be held accountable for the things men did?

@naunet I don't really understand what you would want to get out of that hypothetical though... the right to be racist without being criticised? Presumably not...

When it comes to matters of race, white people are the dominant power (in the Western world) regardless of gender. Just like when it comes to matters of gender, men are the dominant power regardless of race. Being a woman doesn't give a white person a get out of jail free card when it comes to racial oppression/cultural appropriation, just like being Black doesn't give a man licence to be a misogynist.

[quote peachgreen]@naunet I don't really understand what you would want to get out of that hypothetical though... the right to be racist without being criticised? Presumably not...

When it comes to matters of race, white people are the dominant power (in the Western world) regardless of gender. Just like when it comes to matters of gender, men are the dominant power regardless of race. Being a woman doesn't give a white person a get out of jail free card when it comes to racial oppression/cultural appropriation, just like being Black doesn't give a man licence to be a misogynist.[/quote]
Of course not! For fuck sake.

I’m just curious as to why women are held accountable for the actions of men, when women had no power themselves. It’s a thought experiment, that’s all. It’s makes sense in terms of modern racism that women are just as accountable, but not historically.

By the way, you know it wasn’t only white/western countries that colonised other places, right?

It's not my area of expertise but I suspect you could find plenty of examples of white women taking part in the historical oppression and abuse of men and women of colour so I'm not really sure the thought experiment stacks up. Nor am I really convinced it's relevant because we're not just talking about white women, are we? White people as a whole are guilty of cultural appropriation and I don't think trying to wriggle out of the responsibility for addressing it on a technicality is appropriate or helpful.

By the way, you know it wasn’t only white/western countries that colonised other places, right?

Yes, obviously. But the modern world has been overwhelmingly shaped by white colonialism.

I thought of Spain (for dances with fans_) and then I think there is a famous dance somewhere where you are totally naked except for fans which also came to mind.

Mind you the UK is so cold we cannot do much nudity nor do we need fans much unless we were Victorian ladies getting the vapours in the 1800s and being fanned probably because corsets were too tight.

Or this - has it all - men as women and much else.

www.bitchmedia.org/article/mothers-of-massive-resistance-white-supremacist-women

@peachgreen

It's not my area of expertise but I suspect you could find plenty of examples of white women taking part in the historical oppression and abuse of men and women of colour so I'm not really sure the thought experiment stacks up. Nor am I really convinced it's relevant because we're not just talking about white women, are we? White people as a whole are guilty of cultural appropriation and I don't think trying to wriggle out of the responsibility for addressing it on a technicality is appropriate or helpful.

By the way, you know it wasn’t only white/western countries that colonised other places, right?

Yes, obviously. But the modern world has been overwhelmingly shaped by white colonialism.

Well no, specifically we were talking about white women. And no, a group without power cannot oppress another group. Individual examples of discrimination are not the same as oppression. It’s like me blaming black men for women not having the vote in the UK - black men cannot be held accountable for the oppression women faced in this country, even though some of them may very well have hated women and agreed with our oppression.

It’s really irritating to try and have an adult conversation about this and continuously getting called racist for it, even though I’ve said nothing racist. I

[quote elodie77]www.bitchmedia.org/article/mothers-of-massive-resistance-white-supremacist-women[/quote]
The UK is not America.

So much pointing the finger. I’m looking forward to when the reproachfulness wears off and people can live alongside each other peacefully.

www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/30/white-women-were-colonisers-too-to-move-forward-we-have-to-stop-letting-them-off-the-hook

blogs.lse.ac.uk/medialse/2020/10/01/how-white-feminists-and-elites-appropriated-slavery-and-still-do/

And no, a group without power cannot oppress another group

This is just not true. People without power in a society, do oppress others. As just one example, Chinese mother-in-laws were infamous for their awfulness to their daughter-in-laws. Unfortunately people who are treated like shit, often treat others like shit when they have the chance. I'm sure its some sort of acting out of psychological protection.

@Taoneusa

So much pointing the finger. I’m looking forward to when the reproachfulness wears off and people can live alongside each other peacefully.

No justice, no peace.

Or mothers binding the feet of their daughters. Or arranging for the genital mutilation of their daughters. Powerless groups often oppress others.

Tbh I'm not really sure why you would think it would be cultural appropriation, but it's always good to check if you're unsure

Oh my goodness, the arrogance in this! You clearly see yourself amongst the judges and arbiters of what is and is not acceptable for others to do.

[quote elodie77]www.theguardian.com/world/2019/aug/30/white-women-were-colonisers-too-to-move-forward-we-have-to-stop-letting-them-off-the-hook

blogs.lse.ac.uk/medialse/2020/10/01/how-white-feminists-and-elites-appropriated-slavery-and-still-do/[/quote]
Your first link is again about America - not relevant to the UK at all, we’re different countries with different histories.

Your second article basically just acknowledges some white women were racist. I don’t think anyone had denied that?

Anyway this is getting off topic, and I’ve contributed to that, so to go back to the original topic, yes, I believe cultural appropriation exists, but I also think it’s been taken to the absolute extreme and doesn’t at all help the over all goal of us all living in peace and embracing each other.

@Helpsortmylife

Or mothers binding the feet of their daughters. Or arranging for the genital mutilation of their daughters. Powerless groups often oppress others.

Women don’t have the power to object to this, it is being done for the sake of men, not women. They’re handmaidens to the oppressive patriarchal culture, but they don’t have the power to have created that culture.

Its not cultural appropriation.

Much as I'd love to be lumped in with the daily mail readers, I'm mixed race, working class and left wing, and some of the smug woke-istas here can fuck right off.

Hhm. You strike me as being a bit disingenuous.

I think you know this isn't cultural appropriation. They are just fans. Used as a dance prop.

The whole idea of cultural appropriation is racist in a way.

If you take it to the extreme it means that Strictly is racist because it has lots of dancers doing dances from all over the world which don't match their culture. What kind of nonsense is that?

Instead we seem to be saying if you are British you can do certain dances which are socially acceptable but not culturally British but not others. Except there are no rules as to which are acceptable and which are not. Which is also nonsense.

Otherwise are we saying if you are white British with no immigration history in the family for several generations we should only be theorectically be doing dances like Morris or Country Dancing to reflect our cultural history.

I'm sorry but I find the entire idea of cultural appropriation in a country which has been a melting pot for immigration and mixing of cultures bonkers and ignoring our national tradition of encouraging foreign traditions to be part of our wider heritage. Without cultural appropriation there is no chippy tea on a Friday or no curry after a big night at the pub.

I just don't get it!

Its celebrating something joyful and wonderful.

The other point is this doesn't go in reverse - Hollywood and British culture is deliberately exported for £££ and international influence but we have a desire to somehow stop the reverse exchange. Why?

(The answer is about power and control btw)

Women don’t have the power to object to this, it is being done for the sake of men, not women. They’re handmaidens to the oppressive patriarchal culture, but they don’t have the power to have created that culture

Well, that's not necessarily always true. Sometimes the mothers arrange for this to be done against the wishes of the father. You are right though, that this is not about the autonomy of individuals, it is about entire misogynistic structures in society that work to create these oppressions.

My point was merely that people who have had bad done to them can indeed go on to do bad to others who have even less power and control than they do. The oppressed can and do oppress.

And no, a group without power cannot oppress another group

What utter tosh! Female Genital Mutilation exists in the U.K. as does honour killings. Are you saying these women are not oppressed because the males are part of a minority group?

not relevant to the UK at all, we’re different countries with different histories.

Colonialism not relevant to the UK at all?

Well, that's not necessarily always true. Sometimes the mothers arrange for this to be done against the wishes of the father. You are right though, that this is not about the autonomy of individuals, it is about entire misogynistic structures in society that work to create these oppressions.

The whole idea of cultural appropriation along with 'only white people can appropriate' is about systemic racisim.

Therefore, a woman doing it without the mans consent, on rare occasions, isn't relevant. Because thats not systemic oppression.