Cultural appropriation?

[Xmassprout]

I bought some silks fans a little while ago to use for a portion of a dance routine. I've been looking online for inspiration and the vast majority of stuff I can see is connected to bellydancing.

After more investigating it seems that the fans didn't come from the origins of bellydancing but from other cultures. I've also seen that white women bellydancing is seen as cultural appropriation by many.

The routine I'm planning has no resemblance to belly dancing, the costume has no resemblance and hair and make up will be no resemblance. Would it still be cultural appropriation to use the fans?

Please don't jump on me!

IABU = don't use them, it's cultural appropriation
YANBU = use them as long as you're mindful

OP, it seems the very first fans were potentially from Europe anyway, so I think that’s clears you from being a terrible racist person for considering using one.

www.thefanmuseum.org.uk/fan-history

Pictorial records showing some of the earliest fans date from around 3000 BC and there is evidence that the Greeks, Etruscans and Romans all used fans as cooling and ceremonial devices

white Irish people still have power over Irish people of colour

Lol this is the silliness you get when you copy-paste American racial politics onto other cultures.

If you have got to the point of thinking ' can I use a fan', I think you need to question the entire concept you have tbh.

That depends on context. There was a good discussion about plaits on another thread. Plaits are great and Europeans had them and we can wear them. Plaits while hopping around with feathers in your hair and crossed arms pretending to be First Nations? Really really not OK.

OP, going back to original question and if you've managed to wade through the can of worms you inadvertently opened. Fan veils are not traditional Belly Dance props, I'm guessing they are appropriated from more Eastern forms of dance. I've used them many times as a Belly Dancer, they aren't traditional, but mostly no one cares. They add to the dance form and are great fun (one of my favourite props to use) Go for it. I don't believe dance itself can be culturally appropriated, dodgy stereotypes are not acceptable and I've seen a few of those performances in my time, but if you are performing with a love of the dance and making it your own it really doesn't matter what your original culture is. Oh and as a tip, keep the fan veils moving all the time, they look awful if you let them go "dead", take your movements all the way through from the shoulder rather than the wrist unless you're doing flutter effects. Plus don't be afraid to use them closed it adds an extra dimension and making sure one is left and one right handed can make it easier.

Plaits while hopping around with feathers in your hair and crossed arms pretending to be First Nations?

It's not really plaits that are the problem there though.

Including whether a white teenage women should wear a chinese style dress to a prom, for example

The whole ‘Chinese-style’ dress thing is another absurdity.

For one, what outsiders think of as ‘Chinese’ dress is actually ethnic Machu—not only that, it’s ethnic Manchu with EUROPEAN tailoring. Those lines aren’t indigenous—there was never anything so form-fitting in the Han Chinese tradition.

Chinese clothing revival communities do Hanfu, which is an approximation of what people might have wore before the Qing dynasty

@TheKeatingFive

Plaits while hopping around with feathers in your hair and crossed arms pretending to be First Nations?

It's not really plaits that are the problem there though.

They are when they are part of a cliched costume of another culture which is oppressed. When historically white people kidnapped FN children from their homes and chopped their plaits off. Which can signify death in some FN cultures.

Maybe avoiding it if you aren't a total arsehole. I mean you can do it. It's a free country. But empathy is a thing.

They are when they are part of a cliched costume of another culture which is oppressed.

But not the plaits themselves.

Plaits as part of racist cosplay.

@TheKeatingFive

They are when they are part of a cliched costume of another culture which is oppressed.

But not the plaits themselves.

Plaits as part of racist cosplay.

Well yes, clearly. Which is what I said

or Europeans of any sex dancing a Samba, Tango or Pasa Doble?

The paso doble originated in France, based on the music from Spanish bullfights, so that one's probably ok!

To be honest, the international-style samba, tango etc danced competitively were codified so long ago (by Europeans) that they're functionally a whole different dance that shares a name and some rhythms.

Naunet You should acknowledge and not try to distance yourself from the toxic legacy of colonialism in your country, which exploited other countries and benefited from slavery. The denial is just breathtaking.

@MrsTerryPratchett

If you have got to the point of thinking ' can I use a fan', I think you need to question the entire concept you have tbh.

That depends on context. There was a good discussion about plaits on another thread. Plaits are great and Europeans had them and we can wear them. Plaits while hopping around with feathers in your hair and crossed arms pretending to be First Nations? Really really not OK.

OP was never claiming to be an ethnicity other than her own

That's totally irrelevant here!

Every culture borrows stuff from other cultures without it we wouldn't have made it out of the primordial forests and most of would never have eaten anything cooked as we wouldn't be able to use the next tribes new fangled fire. Farming and weaving would never have spread to europe 6000 years ago from the middle east.

Just think about that and then realise how utterly stupid this whole "cultural appropration" nonsense is.

Stop being so mock sensitive and start enjoying what other cultures can offer.

@elodie77

Naunet You should acknowledge and not try to distance yourself from the toxic legacy of colonialism in your country, which exploited other countries and benefited from slavery. The denial is just breathtaking.

Where have I denied that? Im very aware of British history thank you. All I’ve said to you is that American history and politics is not British history and politics. Sorry that offends you 🙄

As a female POC, get a grip

It was men who colonised other countries, women didn’t hold any power themselves, so surely it wasn’t possible for them to oppress others? Discriminate, sure, but men were responsible for oppression and colonisation. So why must women be held accountable for the things men did?

You claim that women played no part in colonialism and oppressing other countries which is just rubbish. 'Women had no power' Queen Victoria?

@elodie77

It was men who colonised other countries, women didn’t hold any power themselves, so surely it wasn’t possible for them to oppress others? Discriminate, sure, but men were responsible for oppression and colonisation. So why must women be held accountable for the things men did?

You claim that women played no part in colonialism and oppressing other countries which is just rubbish. 'Women had no power' Queen Victoria?

No, that’s not a claim, it was a question, that’s what a question mark means. And if you’re trying to say that because one woman became Queen by default, women as a class weren’t oppresses/held power, you’re being ridiculous.

By the way, I find it ironic that on a thread about cultural appropriation, you were trying to claim American history as the same as British. Isn’t that cultural appropriation too? We do not have the same culture or history as America, it would surely be appropriation to pretend we do?

@elodie77

It was men who colonised other countries, women didn’t hold any power themselves, so surely it wasn’t possible for them to oppress others? Discriminate, sure, but men were responsible for oppression and colonisation. So why must women be held accountable for the things men did?

You claim that women played no part in colonialism and oppressing other countries which is just rubbish. 'Women had no power' Queen Victoria?

By the way, you said I was denying history, this quote doesn’t show that, in fact it shows the complete opposite, that I acknowledge the history of colonisation. Maybe rather than jumping to outrage at anyone who doesn’t follow the new Approved Group Think, read what I actually wrote and mean.

Naunet I've tried to engage with you but your silliness and ignorance makes it difficult. I think it says it all really about the chronically underfunded British education system.

@elodie77

Naunet I've tried to engage with you but your silliness and ignorance makes it difficult. I think it says it all really about the chronically underfunded British education system.

You’ve made no valid points whatsoever - two of your posts literally just pointed to American articles like they were relevant. Tell me how European women could have stopped colonisation? Im genuinely interested.

@elodie77

Naunet I've tried to engage with you but your silliness and ignorance makes it difficult. I think it says it all really about the chronically underfunded British education system.

The only thing I ever agreed with Margaret Thatcher on is when she said this,; 'I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left.'

Your AIBU is to vote if you think you should use the fan with "mindfulness". How the fuck are you going to that then?

Sharpie a big apology on your head in case anyone should come along and have a fit of the vapours when they see you gyrating with an ancestral fan?

Or are you going to give out leaflets aforehand, inviting this imaginary offended person to tell you to drop the fan and leave yourself wobbling about with a feather duster?

Or are you going to lie down prostrate and apologise for being white?

I think you're over thinking this.

There was a language of the Fan during the late 1700/early 1800 - possibly originating in France but certainly in common usage in the British Isles.
Use the fan

Can we talk about dance?

Would people have a problem with the Polovstian dances from the opera Prince Igor, where the costumes are markedly exotic/Orientalist? Putting aside the story of kidnapping, conquest and slavery (where the Khan was the aggressor, not the "white" Russians), do the costumes spoil anyone's enjoyment? I just see exquisite dancing and hear sublime singing.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=3ye4o2T0K3w

@Naunet

The whole thing is crazy What about black men dancing a Viennese Waltz, or Europeans of any sex dancing a Samba, Tango or Pasa Doble?

The dumbest thing I’ve ever seen on this topic was an idiot white American teacher saying she was going to stop teaching Spanish because it was appropriating Mexican culture 🙄
She’s seemed oblivious that the Spanish language comes from Spain, ie, a white country.

And also oblivious to the fact that it’s respectful to learn another language and attempt to use it. Far more respectful than assuming everyone else must speak English.

Sometimes I think the world has gone collectively mad. I hope it stops soon.