To be disappointed with the way my sister is raising her kids

[snup]

Backstory, we had a difficult upbringing with loving but inadequate parents (mental health issues, alcoholism).

Now she has 4 kids with fairly big age gaps and I have one.

The dynamic in her family is just dreadful. Everyone fights and argues all the time, the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate. She and DBIL are super strict with many many rules that are enforced with iron will. There's no abuse, plenty of money and all the kids are loved and well cared for, materially.

But no meal happens without at least one child being sent outside / away. No day out without a huge bust up between at least two members of the family and sometimes more. There is always someone shouting and someone crying.

I feel so sad for her kids and for her really.

But I also get that 4 kids is about crowd control and I also think she's mirroring a lot of what was bad about our own childhood.

She seems stressed and joyless.

Should I say something? If so, what?

[quote ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba]@Minfilia

I think that apart from your stellar parenting (I mean it sincerely, you sound great) you also got lucky that your kids are so compatible.

my sister and I never were.
she has always been a selfish shit (still is) who'd take and take and nobody and nothing could change her behaviour.
so we always argued because she ignored boundaries, she stole and wrecked my things, she didn't respect me or my belongings and wouldn't take no for answer.
some people have one, like my sister, and their lives are just as hell-ish.

Please don't underestimate how lucky you are, I do think you are the exception.[/quote]
Maybe I am lucky, I dont know.

What I do know is I grew up in an utterly toxic and dysfunctional household with parents who should have divorced at least ten years before they actually did. My home life was hell, constantly treading on eggshells and being screamed at or hit for the most minor things (including trying to walk away from an argument).

I was pretty determined not to have my kids end up being in that kind of environment and I was a difficult teenager due to my shitty upbringing, which frankly, with four of them, I felt I couldn’t have that level of stress in my life

They are good kids by and large though I will admit. But it’s taken work on our part to have a harmonious household too, particularly when you have no parental behaviour to model yourself on!

@Comedycook I don’t believe I said that arguing in the car was ordinary

@Minfiilia

you are amazing

I'm one of five. The house was generally quiet and very little fighting or squabbling.

The reason was that we learned any minor wounds or offence we could inflict upon one another was dwarfed by the violence of our mother's response. Argue at the table? Rap across the knuckles with the sharp side of the carving knife or a punch to the side of the head that sent you flying off your chair. Get in a little dig at your older brother? Get pinned up against the wall with a hot iron millimeters away from you being told she was going to melt your face off. Stay out of range when the 2nd oldest was cornered and being poked at because when he panics and pushes her away, all hell is going to break loose. Try and gauge her moods because if one hasn't noticed it, they're going to be completely blindsided by the reaction to telling the littlest 'shift over squirt, that's my space'.

Go down to one child because the others have fucked off as soon as possible and it's even quieter. Less shouting necessary when she was happily stamping on bare feet in the kitchen because she got a 'look'. And nobody ever noticed because it was so quiet.

Be glad that they feel safe to be pains in the arse.

You should take all 4 for a couple of nights to see what it's like. There's a huge difference between one and four.

@NeverDropYourMoonCup thats horrendous

[quote Cheesecakeandwine]@Comedycook I don’t believe I said that arguing in the car was ordinary[/quote]
My point was your DC may only argue in the car...some people's children may never argue. Some may argue constantly. It's not a reflection necessarily on your parenting

@NeverDropYourMoonCup

so sorry, that's beyond awful

I had a violent father. I know all about mood-watching.
Once I dared to have a different opinion, which he saw as undermining his authority, and he retaliated so harshly that I peed myself from being scared. I was 8.

You make a good point about feeling safe enough to be a pain in the arse.👍
I guess my kids are the safest in the world 🤣

If an older sibling does something helpful like taking a sharp thing off a younger child do you consider this parenting? or if the younger child had something in their mouth, again is this parenting and to be frowned upon or learning to be responsible for the safety of people around you?

This isn’t the impression I get from OP’s posts - the youngest is 6 after all. It sounds more like the shouty parents yell at the younger kids then the older kids join in the yelling. Doesn’t really sound like a busy noisy family but a really unpleasant atmosphere.

You have one child who is only 4??

Hilarious. If you actually want to help rather than judge, take them all off her hands for a day here or there.

I have 2 kids and it is very similar in this house. My DD is very much like your DSis's older 2, she will shout at my DS and if we are telling him off for something she weighs in, we don't give her parental control, we actually tell her not to do it and that we are the parents not her, but she still does it.

@CecilyP

If an older sibling does something helpful like taking a sharp thing off a younger child do you consider this parenting? or if the younger child had something in their mouth, again is this parenting and to be frowned upon or learning to be responsible for the safety of people around you?

This isn’t the impression I get from OP’s posts - the youngest is 6 after all. It sounds more like the shouty parents yell at the younger kids then the older kids join in the yelling. Doesn’t really sound like a busy noisy family but a really unpleasant atmosphere.

I agree, it’s horrible when siblings join in with having a go at one sibling, it creates a bullying atmosphere.

@PinkSyCo

So the age gap is approximately 3 years between each child? Not that big then. I think it’s perfectly normal for a 15 year old to tell a 6 year old off. Also normal for lots of arguing in a big family too. Have you thought that she might seem stressed because she can feel your judgmental eyes burning into her while she’s busying herself with her family?

Have to say I agree with this.

I have three DC with large age gaps between eldest and youngest. Sometimes I loathe being with family because I feel like every extended family member is quietly judging the way I'm interacting with my DC. My DSis cannot have children and whilst she is absolutely lovely with mine, there is inevitably a sense of 'well if we'd had DC they wouldn't have been allowed to behave like this' when we are with them. My parents are also lovely but sometimes I can sense a judgemental attitude from them too. As a result I am far, far more stressed and hectoring when around my family than I am when it's just me, DH and our boys at home. Could be similar with your DSis, OP. Even if you don't mean to be judgemental, it could be that this is her perception.

The thing is, too, that the reality of a big family is a world away from one quiet 4 year old DC. It can feel relentless and inevitably there are disagreements and shouting from time to time. Best online comment I ever read about having 3 + children: "Your life will be hectic and crazy and loud and full of shouting and frustration and love." As a mother of 3, I have to say this can ring very true a lot of the time!

Also, if the age gap goes from 15 to 6 (ours is similar, 17 down to 8) it is also inevitable at times that the eldest will 'help' with parenting the youngest. Help in inverted commas because of course a lot of the time it really doesn't help at all! But it's hard, being a teen and having much younger siblings. It's hard, too, being a younger sibling and having a brother or sister who's a stroppy teen. And it's bloody hard trying to parent them all.

Oh dear OP
Everyone has pounced on the fact you only have one child when in fact what you are describing is clearly dysfunctional behaviours that stem from being the child of alcoholics.

What you describe are the recreation of classic dysfunctional behaviours of household chaos,poor parenting, shouting/ verbal abuse and constant drama.
Rigid rules and excessive strictness are dysfunctional and clearly dont work hence the shouting.
Tolerance to and seeking these behaviours happens as they are familiar to your Dsis.
Often Parentification takes place where the DC in the family are required to " parent" and take responsibilty for their parents emotions and in effect parent the younger siblings( I dont mean the odd bit of babysitting or helping!)
I would start a new thread in Relationships as your Dsis really needs help and you dont need a whole thread of being told off for only having one child!
Well done for recognising this-have you sought help yourself ?

Keep ya beak out

@Sunflowerfieldsofgold sums up the issue on this thread. Too many posters have got defensive about their larger noisy families! It was never about how many kids people have. It was about OP’s worried for her nieces/ nephews and the potentially dysfunctional atmosphere in their house.

Kids need caring aunties like OP, I wish I had had one.

I’m one of 3 with big age gaps and I can only remember someone being sent away from the table a couple of times, to us that would have been a big thing and we would have been really upset. Not saying we were perfect but to say a normal family is everyone shouting at each other, people being sent outside at meal times, someone always crying - is normal - doesn’t seem right to me? I don’t think OP is a horrible judgmental cow, just someone who worries her own abusive childhood is being mirrored by her sister. Surely that’s a normal worry.

Also I’m not saying this is an abusive situation or anything like that - please don’t think I am - BUT the sheer amount of posts when someone is concerned about a family that say ‘you’re interfering’ ‘keep your nose out’ and worse, more insulting posts, are staggering when you then go on to threads about horrific situations where children have been abused (things like you see in the news) and everyone says ‘I can’t understand why no one said anything!’ Or ‘everyone who stood by and watched this happen is evil!’

People are terrified of being accused of interfering etc. THAT is why abuse goes on behind closed doors and no one ever says anything.

@Justheretoaskaquestion91 hit the nail on the head I think.

OP, I think you're coming from a place of love (even though I hate that phrase 😳) and you've had a hard time on here. But families are all different and I don't see what you can do other than, as MANY others have stated, offer to help. Best of luck to you all.