To be disappointed with the way my sister is raising her kids

[snup]

Backstory, we had a difficult upbringing with loving but inadequate parents (mental health issues, alcoholism).

Now she has 4 kids with fairly big age gaps and I have one.

The dynamic in her family is just dreadful. Everyone fights and argues all the time, the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate. She and DBIL are super strict with many many rules that are enforced with iron will. There's no abuse, plenty of money and all the kids are loved and well cared for, materially.

But no meal happens without at least one child being sent outside / away. No day out without a huge bust up between at least two members of the family and sometimes more. There is always someone shouting and someone crying.

I feel so sad for her kids and for her really.

But I also get that 4 kids is about crowd control and I also think she's mirroring a lot of what was bad about our own childhood.

She seems stressed and joyless.

Should I say something? If so, what?

" the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate."

May I ask why? I do think it's wrong if the older children are given tasks and responsibilities that should not be theirs, but having a parental 'approach' is pretty normal isn't it?

I'm one of four and there was a lot of arguing and shouting as well. Not something that did me much good, but probably is normal with four children, especially on days out or confined to a small space.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

Thing is, she won't change her parenting style if you say anything. All that will happen is that she will be furious, and is likely to limit contact with you, so you will have less opportunity to support your nephews & nieces.

I don't agree with PPs that shouting and sending out is normal at every meal, though - and I'm one of 4, with a very shouty mother, and had 3 (DFC) myself. Yes, you will have a lot of chaos and bickering, but even my family managed the occasional moment of harmony. And you are right that it's horribly stressful. I loathed family meals as a child and the term, 'family time' makes me shudder to this day.

Or maybe if OP asks if everything is ok, the sister might say no it's a fucking riot and I've no idea how to change it.

Kids make noise - lots of noise. More the merrier! There is a judgy element to your observations which makes you sound unkind towards your sister.
If you are that worried about their welfare then get stuck in and help! Judging from the sidelines in a pious way will be a guaranteed way to wreck your relationship with her.
I expect you don’t see the fantastic massive family Christmases, or the fact they are able to be self sufficient socially if they want to be or the fun they have together. It seems you only look at the negative. Which is sad for you and your child mostly as I can’t think they will rush to invite you over.

My house was calm when I had one child. I now have two children and it's carnage. I can only begin to imagine the chaos of there were twice as many children here again.

As long as the children are provided for and know they are loved, stay out of it.

Never criticise another’s parenting it will only end badly

Take her 4 for the weekend support her

I have three children and recognise a lot of the 'issues' you have highlighted with your sister's family. I can totally understand the inflexibility of rules, if everyone got to what they liked when they liked my house would be even more chaotic than it is now. Rules ensure things run smoothly and everyone is treated fairly. There is usually someone crying or fighting too, we don't encourage this of course, but it happens. However, just as frequently, there are collaborative games and mutually caring behaviours and looking out for each other (and ganging up on me!). Comparing a large family with an only child is like comparing an apple and a grape, they are both fruit, but that's about it!

Yes take all four for the weekend, and if you successfully achieve silence and calm for 48 hours as they sit in a line knitting etc then you are clearly the superior parent and can share your top tips (with us) most likely you will get a clear insight into juggling multiple children and how excruciatingly exhausting it can be and cut your sister some slack?

@gcgirlsrock

Yes take all four for the weekend, and if you successfully achieve silence and calm for 48 hours as they sit in a line knitting etc then you are clearly the superior parent and can share your top tips (with us) most likely you will get a clear insight into juggling multiple children and how excruciatingly exhausting it can be and cut your sister some slack?

For the 'experiment' to work she'd have to have them from infance though.

Maybe stop being so judgey op? You don’t even take all four together to baby sit, give it a shot for a few days then judge her.

I don't think the age gap sounds that large, tbh. Not small, but from the OP, I was expecting something like a 15 or 20 year gap.

I don't think it's your place to intervene, unless you think the children are being neglected or mistreated. Different situation, different parenting style... If you say something, you risk alienating her, and then you won't be able to help her or the children if they do need your assistance.

It sounds normal to me. It probably looks worse for you looking in from the outside. I have 4 children and they argue and fight every day but also get on well most of the time. They sometimes hit each other, shout but then put it behind them 5 minutes later and are back to being friends- its water of a duck’s back to them.

I think OP got the message but you really don't have a clue how it is with a) more than one child, 2) children who aren't well behaved 3) teens 4) mix of ages where you can't meet everyone's need so there will always be someone displeased.

Even meals. One child you have full attention onto 1 from possibly two adults. Can pick foods they generally love and conversation is calm.

I can get my head around the fact that you can't see how noncomparable this is.

Oh hang on

I'm thinking it's a wind up

it is on the passionate/clashing personalities side of normal, but there's nothing ultimately wrong there.
we have 7 kids, not a day goes by without some arguments. it's part and parcel of having a lot of individuals living together.

in fact I know of families where it's just 2 or 3 people and they still argue a lot so having bust ups is not a big family privilege.

You should never ever comment on someone else's parenting to their face, unsolicited and unwarranted "help/advice" is never appreciated. yikes, don't do it.
stay out of it.
I'm sure she's doing the best she can, if you want to help ask her if she needs support in any way.

My mother was one of 8.

Lots of noise, lots of 'minding each others' business', arguing etc. But, in adulthood, ( obviously the only part I saw ), they would stand with each other against the world, fantastic in a crisis - still minding each others' business.

Their parents must have had a 'full life' and were very hardworking,
involved and organised but gave their children the best gift of all - they thought they were all great.

Maybe what you see as stressful, they see as showing concern, letting it all out, getting instant feedback, resulting in fantastic mental health - once out it doesn't bother them anymore. They're raring to go again the next time. Some people thrive in this kind stimulating environment.

I think you are getting a hard time here Snup it is your business and you should take interest.
It does sound like a perception (4 vs 1) but keeping an eye and offering help is no bad thing.

Paha. Our 3 boys have age gaps and due a little girl in December, our house is chaotic, always fighting, always having to pull one off the other, send one for time out. Meal times are the worst ‘he’s looking at me funny’, ‘he’s touching me’ ‘he got ketchup on my chip’ - all while screaming at each other, you have to tell them 50 times, we’ve had to separate the eldest from the youngest two at meal times 🙄

I don’t think you can judge when you’ve got one tbf OP 😂

I remember reading a post on a different forum once where a mum of one girl was contemplating reporting her neighbour who had four boys because she often heard the mother shouting and she wouldn't dream of shouting at her only girl...

If you want to help her, stop being so judgemental and offer some childcare!

I do think it's basically par for the course in big families, but your sister does sound worn out with it a bit as well. It can become joyless and monotonous the constant bickering and fighting. Spending a bit of time with just 1 or 2 of them at a time can remind you of what you enjoy about parenting and it not just all being "crowd control" I try and arrange 1:1 time and activities with my DC 1 or 2 at a time so that it's not always crowd control, and thankfully have a family who help me sometimes by taking 1 or 2 DC off so I can have more time with the others. That's what I would be offering, is to give her some time with less DC all at once by taking some myself IYSWIM

I have 4 kids and this is reality. It's not sad or abiluse, just life with 4 kids of different ages who are naturally going to argue alot.

You sound very judgemental.

Of course your house is going to be vastly different with a single child.
They have no one to argue with for starters!

Considering her (and your) upbringing, it could be much, much, much worse. As you say, they are loved and cared for - you should cut her some slack, really! It’s much easier raising 1 child than 4

@Sceptre86

Yabu and are looking at things from your angle of having one child. Who exactly is yours going to argue with or fight over toys with, noone on a regular basis as they are an only child. Siblings do fight, argue etc. What you have described is perfectly normal in a house where there are several children. The fact that you are disappointed in your sister is so judgemental. You can put all your time and energy and indulge your child because their is only one of them. Parents with several kids have to give everyone time, energy and attention, it is always a balancing act. Couple that with the expense of having several children and the extra laundry housework and life administration then it is a whole different ball game. Don't judge what you don't understand.

This! Offer to babysit some of the kids to give your sister a break.

I grew up in a household of four (2 adults, 2 kids) and also experienced constant bickering and crying. I doubt size has anything to do with it. But the result is that I found family life traumatic and therefore never wanted a family of my own.

It makes me so sad that many posters here think it's normal or acceptable for a family to operate this way. That the adults can't be in sync and form a calm unity front for the kids to emulate.

If large families cause nothing buth strife, then why the f*ck do you have so many kids? Do any of you even consider what you are condemning your kids to? What misery you cause your children who never asked to be born? It makes me beyond sick that people think this is okay or normal.

Kids love to get the upper hand on each other and tell each other off, ‘yeh x do what mum says and go and turn the Xbox off right now’, that’s just life!
My kids (2 boys and 1 girl) love nothing better than to grass each other up and get each other into trouble. It’s just what siblings do, pretty sure I was the same 🤷‍♀️