To be disappointed with the way my sister is raising her kids

[snup]

Backstory, we had a difficult upbringing with loving but inadequate parents (mental health issues, alcoholism).

Now she has 4 kids with fairly big age gaps and I have one.

The dynamic in her family is just dreadful. Everyone fights and argues all the time, the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate. She and DBIL are super strict with many many rules that are enforced with iron will. There's no abuse, plenty of money and all the kids are loved and well cared for, materially.

But no meal happens without at least one child being sent outside / away. No day out without a huge bust up between at least two members of the family and sometimes more. There is always someone shouting and someone crying.

I feel so sad for her kids and for her really.

But I also get that 4 kids is about crowd control and I also think she's mirroring a lot of what was bad about our own childhood.

She seems stressed and joyless.

Should I say something? If so, what?

I can understand why you have an opinion OP. I have a similar situation in my family, and I'm afraid I judge. But I have to remind myself that my sister is an adult and everyone is trying their best. She says she is happy, so I leave it. We both have 5 children each, and grew up as 5 children.

All you can do is keep doing what you're doing, but definitely don't say anything.

How your sister chooses to raise her children, in terms of if she consciously wants to break the patterns she experienced as a child, is not something for you to give advice on. It’s not your place. Unless she seeks you out to discuss how she feels she is following old patterns and wants to change. It’s not your place.

and you are completely off your rocker with that opinion that an older child taking a parental approach with a younger child is inappropriate, although you didn't include examples of how that manifests in your sister's home.

have you ever seen a toddler wanting to feed their baby sibling with a bottle milk, because they love them and want to help, copying mummy or daddy?
Is that protective & nurturing instinct inappropriate to you?

and have you read about that young guy a few years ago who had 4 younger siblings and when their mother died he legally adopted them so he could raise them?
how is that inappropriate?

I often catch my older ones "parenting" my younger ones and I'm glad they have good insight and a sense of responsibility towards the younger and more vulnerable.
And you know I've been quite ill recently and it was incredibly helpful that I could rely on my older kids to help out with school runs.
if you think that's inappropriate then I pity you

The two things I think are inappropriate here, which go beyond the bickering and squabbles of siblings are ) non-stop conflict, so someone sent down/removed from the table every mealtime- that's actually really quite awful and b) the older kids disciplining/taking a parental role with the younger ones. I don't see that in any of the 3/4 children families I know. Lots of squabbling, but not constant disciplining and not disciplining of older onto younger, how ganged up would the 6 year old feel, as I guess it's them that's sent down from the table.

@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba surely it depends on the parenting approach, though, if you are a kind nice parent and your older children model that, fab- but if you are authoritarian and looking to enforce rules all the time, no it's not appropriate to delegate that to a 14 year old who then enforces against a younger one. I really haven't seen this with the families I know, either the older ones play/enjoy younger ones, or they hate them, but it's not their job to discipline them and that's different than helping out.

@OnwardsAndSideways1

The two things I think are inappropriate here, which go beyond the bickering and squabbles of siblings are ) non-stop conflict, so someone sent down/removed from the table every mealtime- that's actually really quite awful and b) the older kids disciplining/taking a parental role with the younger ones. I don't see that in any of the 3/4 children families I know. Lots of squabbling, but not constant disciplining and not disciplining of older onto younger, how ganged up would the 6 year old feel, as I guess it's them that's sent down from the table.

Agreed. No family is perfect, regardless of number of children. But both of the things mentioned sound over the top, to me.

@Username817391920384747

That’s family life, none of which you would understand because you have ONE child

So you’re not a family if you only have one child? How nasty.

So you’re not a family if you only have one child? How nasty.

I think they mean you won't get it if you have one child. Very different to 4.

A lot depends on the personalities of everyone in a family. Some people are naturally more placid, quiet and easy going. Other families have people who are more loud and opinionated.

It’s the use of the word “disappointed” op that speaks volumes to me

You’re only a parent of 1 and she is a parent of 4. That difference is humongous. So you don’t really have a clue.

[quote OnwardsAndSideways1]@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba surely it depends on the parenting approach, though, if you are a kind nice parent and your older children model that, fab- but if you are authoritarian and looking to enforce rules all the time, no it's not appropriate to delegate that to a 14 year old who then enforces against a younger one. I really haven't seen this with the families I know, either the older ones play/enjoy younger ones, or they hate them, but it's not their job to discipline them and that's different than helping out.[/quote]
the OP said the older ones tell the younger ones off.
that's not discipline, or assuming a parenting role.
that's plain on winding each other up. even more so when they pile it on.

@Oftenithinkaboutit

It’s the use of the word “disappointed” op that speaks volumes to me

absolutely. it's preposterous

no wonder a lot of people feel defensive on behalf of the sister.

We don't know the age gaps. As OP talks of the older two I took it that two were 15/14ish and two were 6/7ish. That is hard to balance all the time. Totally different needs, lives, abilities etc

@OnwardsAndSideways1
and nobody said the parents delegate any roles for older siblings to reinforce on younger ones.
that's all conjecture and projecting

The way that your sister parents her family or runs her household / family is absolutely nothing to do with you.
Keep your conk out.

@ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba you are right, not enough detail, just she feels the older parent the younger inappropriately, rules are very rigid, shouting, crying, no happy days out or even a meal time without incident.

Could all be normal, but given she was brought up with parents who had alcohol problems and MH problems, and she's worried that's where their parenting techniques are more in that style, I can't see why anyone is defending this, I really can't.

Shouting, loud might be ok, but I wouldn't want to be the 6 year old in this, I really wouldn't.

We can't know though, like so many MN posts. I don't see why the OP shouldn't have an opinion though as she only has one child- should only people with four children and who rule with an iron will and are very shouty reply? We all have different experiences, the Op's is that she clearly feels very uncomfortable with this type of parenting setup, I think it's fine to feel like this, sounds awful to me too (with my two kids).

I agree though, no point in saying anything. Nothing will change, people think the way they parent is right.

I cannot believe you are judging their family life when you have 1 4 year old!

The older kids tell off the younger kids. Or pile in on them when the parents do.

I would not like this. Children piling in when adults are telling another child off is one my pet hates. Also when they jump in before you’ve had a chance to say anything. Just let me parent!

But I also agree you cant really judge them when you have one four year old!

I'm not sure a mum of one 4 year old has much in the way of advice to give a mum of 4 including teenagers 😁

If you want to help her then when not offer to have one or two of her children to stay with you every now and again, or take them out on trips with your daughter

You should not say anything, because she is no CHOOSING that way of life, she is just doing her best in those circumstances. I don't think she can change much.

OP you should really know better, Mumsnet is here to remind you that if you only have one child you just aren’t qualified to have an opinion on anything.