To be disappointed with the way my sister is raising her kids

[snup]

Backstory, we had a difficult upbringing with loving but inadequate parents (mental health issues, alcoholism).

Now she has 4 kids with fairly big age gaps and I have one.

The dynamic in her family is just dreadful. Everyone fights and argues all the time, the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate. She and DBIL are super strict with many many rules that are enforced with iron will. There's no abuse, plenty of money and all the kids are loved and well cared for, materially.

But no meal happens without at least one child being sent outside / away. No day out without a huge bust up between at least two members of the family and sometimes more. There is always someone shouting and someone crying.

I feel so sad for her kids and for her really.

But I also get that 4 kids is about crowd control and I also think she's mirroring a lot of what was bad about our own childhood.

She seems stressed and joyless.

Should I say something? If so, what?

Take all four out for the day

Then see how you feel

She seems stressed and joyless.

Sounds like me and I have half the number of children she has and am suffering from PND. A lot of my childhood traumas have come back and bitten me in the bum since having children. Your sister sounds like she needs a helping hand.

Iim an only so i couldnt fright with myself.
But i have 5 kids,3 are 13 and under and they do fight.Its part and parcel of life.
With 1 child you really havent a clue what its like.I might as well be a referee here some days.

Dont be so judgemental.

Having 4 kids in 9 years isn't big age gaps how quickly did you want her popping them out?
Honestly until you have more than one child and children that don't get along, you have no idea. They probably need to be strict. We can't go on a day out or get ready to go on holiday without someone having an argument, and we've oy got 2 kids old enough to argue.

@BorderlineHappy

Iim an only so i couldnt fright with myself. But i have 5 kids,3 are 13 and under and they do fight.Its part and parcel of life. With 1 child you really havent a clue what its like.I might as well be a referee here some days.

Dont be so judgemental.

100%

it's easy for parents of 1 to judge parents of more than 1.
even if they had siblings growing up (in which case they should remember what it was like to fight with them!) it's just not the same when it's your kids.

my mum is the middle of 3, there were a lot of issues, sibling rivalry, parents favouring one kid. still, she seems to completely disregard that and has the gall to judge & criticise me despite the fact that there's nothing even remotely comparable between how she grew up and how my kids do.
And I really hate her for that. Instead of support and encouragement I get disapproval and duck's arse lips.
fuck that shit

The important thing here is the last lime of the third paragraph . They are all cared for and loved.

I wouldn't worry about the noise and bickering OP. I'd hate it myself but if that what the DC have grown up with it will be their normal. They might find your calm, peaceful household monotonous.

I think your own awful upbringing has made you anxious. You are determined to do better but are looking for perfection and it doesn't exist. There is no perfect family, no perfect household and no perfect way to raise kids.

You sound like a lovely caring aunt and sister. Try to relax a bit. You aren't responsible for the cares of the world. Where is the joy in your own life?

Carry on doing what you are doing for your nephews and nieces and also think about doing something that's fun for just you and your sister. An afternoon out together will probably bring more joy into her life than any amount of well meaning interventions into her family life.

@Calvinlookingforhobbes

(For a day or weekend, not to keep!)

🤣🤣🤣🤣

I'm astonished by these replies. So many times I have read on Mumsnet about how shouting is a form of emotional abuse, do you shout at your colleagues, homes should never have shouting in them blahl blah and now all of a sudden, a house in which no-one can even eat a meal without shouting/arguing and a child sent away from the table is perfectly normal.

I have two children, and have been around lots of families with three or four kids. Yes, they are noisy, but this constant over-disciplining and shouting and tears and stuff, this isn't normal IMO. I hate that I was shouty at times when my children were little, I try to never raise my voice now (and we have all agreed the house is much nicer without volcanic explosions so all try not to shout even though there's two teens), although I do fail from time to time.

This sounds excessive to me, but you haven't given that many examples, it may just be exuberance but it sound stressful and horrid for everyone. Amazed that all of a sudden aggressive parenting is in!

@CaptSkippy on the other hand, I learnt so much from growing up in a household like that, but to be fair there wasn't really much crying just bickering. I learnt how to communicate, stand up for myself, share, conflict resolution etc.

Yes it can be chaotic but it is normal because children are learning, it's not all about them, they have to share, they have to do things they don't want to do, their needs aren't always above everyone elses.

I've got four kids aged 11-2. Three boys and a girl.

I sometimes think being a bouncer at a nightclub would be easier.

It's always loud. Quite often a mess. There's bickering. There's crying. There's shouting. There's sending out the room because someone's being an arse.

We also love a lot, laugh a lot and have so much fun. We've just had lunch together. Two drinks were knocked over and ketchup ended up on the 11 years old head. It was hilarious and noisy and chaos, but something they'll laugh about.

Do I wish there was less arguing? Of course I do. But with six people in a household, of different ages and different personalities, there's always going to be clashes.

Stop judging.

You are getting a lot of flack from people who are feeling defensive about heir own situations. But ultimately there’s nothing you can do, as anything will be taken with a criticism. If any of the kids are feeling particularly unhappy you can be there for them.

Lots of people want the big brood and the big family Christmas, the lovely pile of primary school kids all creating lots of happy noise. Unfortunately a huge number don’t think past that, at least she can afford them, a lot of people just think babies are cheap and never go beyond that. I have to deal with a lot of teens, gone of the rails or messed up in one way or another, mum is always ‘what can I do, I’ve got other kids to think about!’ They don’t see the connection. We are professionals and we can’t make people make better choices or see that they are part of the problem, or try and make them deal with the issues they created. It’s all ‘how dare you judge! You don’t know what’s it’s like!’. But they will never see their role in it or accept it, they just see the problem as being someone else’s now to fix. You as a sister has no chance. You never know it might be alright, lots of kids are. Many just start the cycle all over again.

Have them to stay for a weekend or two. Then if you still feel the same come back and tell us....

They’re 15 - 6 so not the ridiculous age gaps seeing as there’s 4 of them!

You have no idea what life with 4 is like. Last thing she needs is her sister judging her.

It sounds to me as if she's trying hard to give her children a more
co-ordinated, responsible childhood than the one she shared with you. She sets boundaries. With only one child, and a different ratio of adults, your social boundaries in the home are quite different from theirs.

We started with one child and had four; so I've had your experience of parenting and your sisters. I assure you managing four is a whole different ball-game after a singleton :-) Its perfectly normal in a larger family (and desirable IME) for older children to do some mentoring/responsibility for the youngest. Good practice for worklife.

Take all her kids while she and her partner have a weekend away. You'll soon understand their home and parenting style better. It will be a very new experience for your singleton.

[quote WhenISnappedAndFarted]@CaptSkippy on the other hand, I learnt so much from growing up in a household like that, but to be fair there wasn't really much crying just bickering. I learnt how to communicate, stand up for myself, share, conflict resolution etc.

Yes it can be chaotic but it is normal because children are learning, it's not all about them, they have to share, they have to do things they don't want to do, their needs aren't always above everyone elses.[/quote]
Chaotic is not the same thing as constant fights. I think there is a distinction. Abusive households will be abusive regardless of the number of children.
That's why the example parents set on dealing with conflicts is so important. But if they are not good at that and just keep adding kid after kid, then I blame them for being so irresponsible and selfish.

You have 1 child she has 4. If you had 4 too you might have more of an understanding, you don't so stop judging. Unless you are offering to take the children to give them a break keep your beak out.

I have 3 but they are all very little so we don't argue or fallout, I'm bracing myself for the teen years!! You need to be more understanding I think.

Yoh sound very judgey. Maybe she doesn't approve of your parenting style.

Lol at those saying only children don’t have anyone to fight or argue with. Yes they do, their parents 🤣 give it 2-3 years OP and you’ll be bickering and arguing with your only child, trust me!

Should you say something?

Ok, what the heck do you think you’d say that would possibly be of help?

Don’t be daft

I am certain that the most helpful thing you can do is offer to take the children, either individually (maybe nice for them to get some solo time) or together (maybe good for you to understand a bit more about what it's like to manage all four of them together for an extended period of time).

I only have two children but I have to say, your description of family life doesn't sound atypical for any family with multiple kids.

It's kind of like, before you have a child, you don't understand why that mum over there in the supermarket is mishandling things so dreadfully and her howling child is so badly brought up. When you actually have a child yourself, you realise that (a) these things occasionally happen with literally every child, (b) some children aren't neurotypical and present additional challenges, and (c) yep, now I'm the one in the supermarket with the child having a tantrum because she can't eat chocolate for breakfast.

I think you can ask her how the kids are doing and how she’s feeling. I certainly don’t think you would make anything better by offering advice. As lots of pp have said parenting 4 kids isn’t compatible to parenting 1, the demands on the attention of a mother of four children are epic, be careful not to judge her too harshly.

It doesn't sound easy to watch but it is harder the more children you have.

You let something go once and then they push back and insist that it's let go every time.

I had 3 DDs. All now grown up, but looking back to when they were children, this all sounds very normal.

Either stay out of it or offer to have some of her children over occasionally. I imagine that would help her a lot.

You only have one child, so are not spread anywhere near as thinly as she is. It isn't that unusual for a teenager ti sometimes help out with a younger sibling or support the parent.

Oh to be in a mind with one child again.
I totally get where you were coming from OP, I thought the same about my sister when I had 1. I thought parenting was so easy and couldn't understand why parents were so stressed and always one kid misbehaving.

I now have 3 children, 14, 7 and 5. Yeaah, there is always at least one child who doesn't want to play by the rules. In fact I am actually hiding in the bathroom right now as I hear my teen stomping in her room because I removed her phone for an hour, my Dp is downstairs trying to explain to my 7 year old why it isn't ok to cheat at a game and to my 5 year old why it isn't ok to throw a piece of that game at her sisters head.
Are they naughty kids? Today yes, tomorrow they are likely to be angels...I can guarantee one of them will have a strop tho...most likely the teen!

That’s family life, none of which you would understand because you have ONE child