To be disappointed with the way my sister is raising her kids

[snup]

Backstory, we had a difficult upbringing with loving but inadequate parents (mental health issues, alcoholism).

Now she has 4 kids with fairly big age gaps and I have one.

The dynamic in her family is just dreadful. Everyone fights and argues all the time, the older kids take parental approaches to the younger kids which I think is inappropriate. She and DBIL are super strict with many many rules that are enforced with iron will. There's no abuse, plenty of money and all the kids are loved and well cared for, materially.

But no meal happens without at least one child being sent outside / away. No day out without a huge bust up between at least two members of the family and sometimes more. There is always someone shouting and someone crying.

I feel so sad for her kids and for her really.

But I also get that 4 kids is about crowd control and I also think she's mirroring a lot of what was bad about our own childhood.

She seems stressed and joyless.

Should I say something? If so, what?

@OnwardsAndSideways1

I would understand if OP was worried or scared about her sister's well-being (bear in mind that the reality could be quite different from her perception!)

Or was wondering others agree that having 4 wildly different than having 1 (the answer is yes).

Or if she said "right, my sister is overwhelmed with her 4 kids. how can I help & support her, what did people do for you that made life easier?" then I'd be right there with ideas and anecdotes.

But to be disappointed????
Who the hell does she think she is to judge another parent?
even if the sister had 1 kid, she'd have a different life style due to her choices and circumstances - so what? she doesn't have to live up to Judgey McGaspy's expectations.
Why does OP even have expectations regarding anything her sister or her family does?

I get you OP, I could have written this myself. Mine has 4 children 5 and under. The oldest child is left to be responsible for the others when their parents go out for a smoke together. I'm talking a 5 year old being told to watch their 2 year old sibling doesn't choke on a lollipop. Every mealtime is WW3 with one of the eldest 2 ending up in tears (often to the point of one of them vomiting), being sent to bed early, threats of toys being thrown in the bin etc. for not eating dinner (or sometimes not eating dinner quick enough) whilst their parents sit there lecturing (and to be honest, sometimes outright bullying ) the kids to eat whilst leaving their own plates half eaten.

As an outsider I can see what's going on, the kids are fighting for attention and it's relentless. Each time the next kid comes along the previous youngest gets less attention. The cuddles stop, the frustrations grow, they get sworn at and called all sorts of names and they wonder why the eldest one says he doesn't want to come back from his dad's at the weekend.

But is it ever OK to step in? To criticise? To advise?

OP you should really know better, Mumsnet is here to remind you that if you only have one child you just aren’t qualified to have an opinion on anything

It’s not that she can’t have opinions. But when you have opinions on things you haven’t got the faintest idea about it’s really unhelpful and annoying.

It’s like when rich people have opinions on how people on low incomes should be spending their money and how they would make £10 last 5 weeks. Just bloody clueless

Actually, OP, I sort of get you, although you must appreciate how much easier it is with one child, than four.
I'm a single mum of three. We are a team in many ways, and there's a lot of love in our house. But I work a lot and I'm perpetually stressed. I've pandered to the youngest (a girl) and probably expected too much of the fifteen year old boy. The eight year old boy in the middle is, I fear, overlooked at times, and he's quite a sentive sausage. My eldest is too hard on his younger siblings and his sister in particular, which I'm trying to address.
Days out are often stressful - hell, days in are sometimes stressful. But not every single meal ends in drama, with shouting, crying, one or more child being sent from the table, and nor should it. It doesn't sound great. No idea what you might do or say, though.

I have a friend with four children. Smaller age gaps than your sister, (3-10) but her house always is absolutely chaotic, noisy and feels very, very stressful to me I don't go there often. She's a fab parent (IMO) but she's definitely a referee more than a mum at this stage

I have two children. There is a reason I don't have any more, namely because two is plenty for me and I couldn't manage four I would go insane. I think mums of four are bloody heroes.

I really don't think you can judge OP. You have one child. ONE!

Who the hell does she think she is to judge another parent?
even if the sister had 1 kid, she'd have a different life style due to her choices and circumstances - so what? she doesn't have to live up to Judgey McGaspy's expectations Why does OP even have expectations regarding anything her sister or her family does?

God, this is such crap. Lots of children endure terrible parenting, and suffer lifelong problems as a result. It sounds as if the OP is one of them, which is why she is anxious about her nephews and nieces going through the same. Quite rightly.

Parents are a full spectrum of the population, and so some parents are arseholes, violent, neglectful, cruel, immature, addicts and every other negative trait you can think of. The idea that they should be immune from judgement when they make shit parenting choices is a great way to protect parents from the consequences of their actions but not so great for the kids who are fucked up by them.

Most parents are doing their best, often in difficult circumstances. But not all. Not by a long shot.

The dynamics of your families are poles apart- your sister has 4 children (including teenagers!) and you have 1 young child. You simply can't compare... or judge.

PotteringAlong

I cannot believe you are judging their family life when you have 1 4 year old!

Why not, unless OP has led such a sheltered life she’s never visited a family with 4 kids before. Visiting this particular family is not a pleasant experience and makes OP feel uncomfortable. She’d probably give them a wide berth if it wasn’t her sister. She is doing her best taking the kids out of the situation from time to time. Not much else she can do to change the dynamic; if she said anything she’d probably get a mouthful from her sister and would change nothing. All the people confidently stating that their family is just like that, there is no way they can really know unless they also spent time with the sister.

her house always is absolutely chaotic, noisy and feels very, very stressful to me I don't go there often... I think mums of four are bloody heroes

What's heroic about having more children than you can cope with?

My husband and I have 8 children aged between 4 and almost 21 (via birth and adoption so very different personality traits) and we would not find what the OP describes as normal. I can actually count on one hand the amount of times I have had to remove any of them from the dinner table. They do not constantly bicker (unless in the car no matter what the seating configuration is like). The older ones do not parent the younger ones though they will point out if they forget their manners which I find to be a positive thing.
Your sister sounds overwhelmed and gentle support would probably be the best approach along with the continued offers of childcare.

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

She didn't say anxious and I did say that I'd understand worried or scared etc.

she said disappointed.
huge difference.
would you like a family member to be disappointed about how you parent your kids? or would that make you feel judged, criticised, defensive?

Having 4 children within 9 years of each other isn’t what I’d call big age gaps.

[quote ZingDramaQueenOfSheeba]@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

She didn't say anxious and I did say that I'd understand worried or scared etc.

she said disappointed.
huge difference.
would you like a family member to be disappointed about how you parent your kids? or would that make you feel judged, criticised, defensive?[/quote]
The OP makes it clear that she is disappointed because she sees similarities between how her sister parents, and how their own parents parented them - and she knows the damage that caused. Disappointment is perfectly natural in the circumstances. I'd be fucking disappointed if either of my sibs who have kids parented anything like my DM, and I know they'd feel the same about me.

I don't think the OP should say anything to her DSis, but I don't blame her at all for feeling disappointed.

we would not find what the OP describes as normal. I can actually count on one hand the amount of times I have had to remove any of them from the dinner table. They do not constantly bicker (unless in the car no matter what the seating configuration is like

Well there will be some parents whose children don't bicker in the car and would find that very out of the ordinary

@MissLucyEyelesbarrow

* anxious*

Or very very different to

* disappointed*

You agree?

@OnwardsAndSideways1

I'm astonished by these replies. So many times I have read on Mumsnet about how shouting is a form of emotional abuse, do you shout at your colleagues, homes should never have shouting in them blahl blah and now all of a sudden, a house in which no-one can even eat a meal without shouting/arguing and a child sent away from the table is perfectly normal.

I have two children, and have been around lots of families with three or four kids. Yes, they are noisy, but this constant over-disciplining and shouting and tears and stuff, this isn't normal IMO. I hate that I was shouty at times when my children were little, I try to never raise my voice now (and we have all agreed the house is much nicer without volcanic explosions so all try not to shout even though there's two teens), although I do fail from time to time.

This sounds excessive to me, but you haven't given that many examples, it may just be exuberance but it sound stressful and horrid for everyone. Amazed that all of a sudden aggressive parenting is in!

Exactly, this doesn’t sound normal but I think many pps were just triggered and got defensive instead of objectively acknowledging that constant conflict isn’t good for children.

Normally on mn you’re told to go NC with anyone who dares raise their voice to you but apparently it’s ok to shout at your children and let your children shout at each other all the time.

My ex H was one of four. Sounds very similar to how he describes his childhood. Just too much input and competing personalities. Might be “normal” but I don’t think it sounds that happy or satisfying.

As for older kids piling in on the younger ones when the parents do, I don’t think that’s particularly healthy tbh. In my house when I have cause to speak firmly to one of my children, if an older one tries to join in they are told firmly that “I don’t need a wing man/woman, thanks!”

I see what you’re saying though OP and don’t think you’re being judgey or unrealistic.

I don’t think anyone with young children has any business criticising anyone parenting teens. It is so completely different.

Unless there is abuse, mistreatment and keep your judgement to yourself, your time with difficult ages will come

I think many pps were just triggered and got defensive instead of objectively acknowledging that constant conflict isn’t good for children

I don't think constant conflict is a good thing but my teenage ds is going through a stage where he seems to enjoy disagreeing with absolutely every single we say no matter how innocuous. So as an example, I said to dh, wow it's actually quite warm outside considering the time of year... DS then interjects to dispute this. DD may say oh I love this TV show... DS pipes up, oh it's awful, how can you like it? We generally try to ignore this current phase but I'm just making the point that It's not always so simple as to think parents can control the atmosphere entirely.

My four kids are 17-9 so similar range, and as others have said - if there are 4 kids in there, it's not that big of a gap. My kids are all 2.25-2.75 years apart which skirts the bare minimum recommended between kids.

All my kids like to tell each other off at times. I don't think a week goes by I'm not reminding someone - even the youngest - that they aren't the parent. That wouldn't concern me at all.

The high level of conflict and sending away at meal times I can see being concerning as well blow up on trips, but I'm not sure what you can say other than trying to be a supportive ear if she or one of the kids bring it up to you.

It doesn't sound happy or healthy to me even if MN is trying to normalise it. It sounds difficult and like your sister has given up. I don't know what you can do though that you're not already. Maybe just ask her how she is - but I'd avoid giving her advice unless she expressly asks for it as it probably won't be appreciated.

@OnwardsAndSideways1

I'm astonished by these replies. So many times I have read on Mumsnet about how shouting is a form of emotional abuse, do you shout at your colleagues, homes should never have shouting in them blahl blah and now all of a sudden, a house in which no-one can even eat a meal without shouting/arguing and a child sent away from the table is perfectly normal.

I have two children, and have been around lots of families with three or four kids. Yes, they are noisy, but this constant over-disciplining and shouting and tears and stuff, this isn't normal IMO. I hate that I was shouty at times when my children were little, I try to never raise my voice now (and we have all agreed the house is much nicer without volcanic explosions so all try not to shout even though there's two teens), although I do fail from time to time.

This sounds excessive to me, but you haven't given that many examples, it may just be exuberance but it sound stressful and horrid for everyone. Amazed that all of a sudden aggressive parenting is in!

You never raise your voice?

Odd you posted this a week ago

I only swear in my own home, tend not to outside of it. So, definitely in front of the children, but they are teens and not phased by mum shouting 'oh for fuck's sake' when some washing up slides on the floor or something.

I was bullied my whole childhood by a sister who was 7 years older than me and thought she was in charge - and it was allowed because she was older - she abused me physically and emotionally, - I was very scared of her. (we were a family of four and I was the youngest, she the oldest)I think my parents were scared of her too actually. I grew up with very low self esteem and I can't bear arguments and developed a serious eating disorder because she would do a running commentary on the way I ate at meal times, or would berate me for something - I dreaded meal times, she also repeatedly told me I was fat and ugly and no one liked me, so I was painfully shy and desperately unhappy all the time.
I'm no contact with her now (I'm in my 60's and haven;t seen her since my father's funeral ten years ago) Up until that time I still felt fear if I was in a room with her.

The worse part is that it was allowed to go on - my parents didn't protect me, no one stood up for me. Frankly I think they were scared of her too.

So I understand your concerns and your disappointment OP. I don;t think constant arguments, shouting and children being sent from the table at every meal is normal, I think it is dysfunctional. I don;t know what you can do. The best I think you can offer is that the younger children know you are always there for them, that you understand and that they can always talk to you. I think it would have made a difference to me if a trusted adult had offered me a shoulder to cry on, or had boosted my confidence and told me I wasn't completely worthless. Damage done in childhood by things that are let go as 'normal' family bickering can last a lifetime and take a lot of support to undo.

Older DCs quite often help to look after younger ones. That's a normal dynamic. It's not about abdicating parenting or piling on.
They have six people in their house. You have three. Everything is louder and busier, and has to be more tightly controlled for anything to get done from having dinner to getting out the door.
You say yourself that there is no abuse and the DCs are loved. I don't think you need to be disappointed. Maybe pause to consider what you're avoiding looking at in your own life. Sometimes when you have a difficult upbringing, you look for faults in your siblings' lives to avoid looking at issues in your own.

I tend to feel more suspicious and concerned about families that can’t share their feelings including arguments from time to time. Repression is far more damaging.