to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

I’m a Tory supporter and can’t stand War Obsessed Blurgh but even I think everyone should have the opportunity to go to university if that’s what they want to do

So if everyone just knew their place everything would have been fine. It seems to me the multiples of people with either a PPE or Classics degree from Oxford haven't exactly done a sterling job of running the country.

@VladmirsPoutine

So if everyone just knew their place everything would have been fine. It seems to me the multiples of people with either a PPE or Classics degree from Oxford haven't exactly done a sterling job of running the country.

I agree. OTOH I think a large number of degree courses are a very expensive con and I also think that apprenticeships and practical courses/training are not valued or accorded the respect they should be. I feel very sorry for young people getting into so much debt for a qualification that isn't going to get them a job.

@VladmirsPoutine

So if everyone just knew their place everything would have been fine. It seems to me the multiples of people with either a PPE or Classics degree from Oxford haven't exactly done a sterling job of running the country.

It’s not about ‘knowing their place’, more that we should value those skilled trades and encourage people who show an aptitude for them to enter those professions.

Which courses are considered Mickey Mouse?

As a country we’ve never invested enough in skill, training and education. As demonstrated by yesterday’s budget (school finding back to 2010 levels, maybe in a few years time).

Well the Tory Government and school system have kept that mentality for the 10+ years since they've been in power, so its not all Labour's fault. Ponder that.

Finding = funding. Should learn to type 😬

I don’t agree. If we take the 50% of recently degree educated young people over the last few years (pre Covid) and look at where they are now, what do we see? High unemployment? No. They’ve, in the main, taken up jobs. They’ve chosen not to go into those trades.

The Media Studies graduate didn’t want to be a lorry driver at 18, they don’t want to be one at 21, they don’t want to be one at 30.

It’s not because they went to university. It’s because our economy has evolved into a huge service and retail sector, which a lot of people prefer to work in.

Given the choice between shitty conditions on the road and a junior admin position in a big corporate - plenty of people went for the sociable, indoor, day time hours job. For much the same money.

High levels of graduates is not the reason we don’t have drivers. It’s because there are far many more attractive prospects for those graduates than driving.

If wages had been higher for drivers, more would have gone for it - possibly after their degrees!

It was That her that started the shift to the service economy and destroyed all the manufacturing jobs. The kind of jobs that require apprenticeships. Blame her not Blair,

He was trying to improve the education of i know nationals.

Arrrrrgh. U.K. nationals.

So if everyone just knew their place everything would have been fine.

That single sentence reveals the general lack of respect for skilled jobs. Becoming a plumber is "knowing your place" which is beneath those with a university education?

Why would you encourage people who may not be academically inclined to get into loads of debt to gain a qualification which has become so ubiquitous it won't necessarily give you an advantage in the job market. We need skilled workers as well as educated ones.

And it’s meant to say Thatcher!

It woz her wot done it.

It would help if the general public respected skilled tradespeople and those with practical skills and didn't look down their noses at them, while begrdudging them earning a decent wage.

My husband is a tradesman and I'm a teacher. I've witnessed first hand the utter contempt and disrespect many people in this country have for people who don't work in an office or wear a suit to work. They pass this prejudice down to their children by telling them that it they dont work hard enough at school they will 'end up' being a builder/plumber/bus driver. It's endemic in the culture of this country. People who work in trades are a lower class and looked down upon by many many people.

*I don’t agree. If we take the 50% of recently degree educated young people over the last few years (pre Covid) and look at where they are now, what do we see? High unemployment? No. They’ve, in the main, taken up jobs. They’ve chosen not to go into those trades.

The Media Studies graduate didn’t want to be a lorry driver at 18, they don’t want to be one at 21, they don’t want to be one at 30.

It’s not because they went to university. It’s because our economy has evolved into a huge service and retail sector, which a lot of people prefer to work in.

Given the choice between shitty conditions on the road and a junior admin position in a big corporate - plenty of people went for the sociable, indoor, day time hours job. For much the same money.

High levels of graduates is not the reason we don’t have drivers. It’s because there are far many more attractive prospects for those graduates than driving.

If wages had been higher for drivers, more would have gone for it - possibly after their degrees!*

I second this. my DH had 2 younger sisters on UC- both in their 20s. One has a masters degree and is no longer on UC-she is going for an internship in a foreign country. There are countless overseas internship programmes for young people who can't secure a job straight out of university. She is not jumping to become a HGV driver despite the wages being far higher than UC.

DH's other younger sister is also not jumping up to be a HGV driver.. She copes well enough collecting UC and writing on Patreon. Yes she still has to live with her mum but no one seems to mind this arrangement.

If people were interested in getting a 'practical job' after school, they would have done so.

It doesn't have to be an either/or imo. The lack of skills in industry isn't because everyone decided to spend 3 years studying a BA in Navel gazing studies, it's because of the lack of funding in apprenticeships and general post GCSE support. Some of the most successful people with v good work/life balances are to be found in these trades.

@rosesinmygarden I don't know if thats true. I know that tradesmen can earn a lot of money. the gas engineer fixing my boiler lives in a much more valuable house than me. But even if they earned a million pounds per year, i still wouldn't train to work in trades, the same way I wouldn't aim to be a professional footballer as I don't have the temperament for me. I am an indoorsy sort of person who wants to type away at a computer.

For my generation, we were the generation that grew up playing computer games and WII so perhaps its quite natural we would want office jobs. Accountancy school-leaver schemes often require straight A*s and are often hotly contested so its not just about the university vs trades divide. As for drivers, i think its because a lot of people think that driving would be done by robots in future, so don't want to enter such a profession (whether this would happen is another story)!

Well now there are degrees in managing social media, so you’re not wrong about Micky mouse degrees. But I don’t think obtaining higher education is wrong, it helps with many careers including typical trade careers such as joinery, electricians etc.

YABU and YANBU at the same time.

YANBU to blame Blair (for anything really!) - he screwed the country up more than any other prime minister before or since, Thatcher and Johnson included.

But YABU to think that because a degree is of no practical value in itself it is automatically worthless to society. My history degree is of zero practical value, I don't work in a field where it would be useful because there simply aren't enough jobs to go around. However, skills I learned and improved during my course (research, interrogating evidence, challenging accepted beliefs for example) are of immense practical value in my work.

I agree in principle that the shift to university is the best way forward wasn't good, but I think it would only have been better if other things were going on too. It is good that those who historically wouldn't have been able to go to uni had the option, and could pursue professional careers that required a degree if they wanted. However vocational qualifications should have been given more support, and not just for school leavers either. Making retraining or upskilling more accessible to career changers, better careers advice and guidance, and raising pay and conditions for certain sectors to make them more appealing.

Many clerical jobs which would have been open to school leavers now 'require' a degree.

Tradespeople can pretty much name their price as they are in such short supply.

Well now there are degrees in managing social media, so you’re not wrong about Micky mouse degrees

Managing social media is a job for a lot of people though, and it's not a job I think I could do well, even though I consider myself to be a capable and skilled person.

What about a degree in social media management is so different o a degree in English?

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Arrrrrgh. U.K. nationals.

It always amazes me that people think electricians/heating engineers/plumbers are not academically inclined, you need maths, physics, you have to sit yearly written exams and do practical tests to keep your qualifications up to the latest requirements and be able to run your own business on top of all that.

We need to value vocational studies the way they are valued in places like Germany, with their highly skilled and productive workforce.

Quoted wrong post!

I can blame Blair insomuch as his government failed to reverse the decimation of the vocational education sector undertaken by the previous Tory government. Turning polytechnics into second-rate universities was a huge mistake. We've really suffered from getting rid of vocational routes into professions and all attempts at reviving "apprenticeships" seem to just be sticking plaster solutions.