to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

The personal experience of a single person is not data.

I think the class system is the real reason our education system falls behind other countries. The tradition was that posh pupils went to Eton or some other private schools, studied the Classics, then went to Oxbridge to study something, anything. Then went out into the world to run the City or Banking or wherever the money is.
What they didn't do was study engineering - Engineers in Germany were/are Herr Doctor - prestigious title for a prestigious job.
AS can be seen by our politicians this still remains. In fact it still remains in everything, ex public school pupils excel at sport (Olympic competitors), in the arts (many of our comedians ). We produce a good number of entrepreneurs but that doesn't seem to be thanks to their innovative and technical education. More often because they dropped out of school.
We need scientists, engineers, mathematicians, software experts.
We should provide a higher salary for teachers of these subjects. Sadly the best mainly go into industry.

I haven't RTFT but I agree with you!

I always remember a conversation I had with a head of year secondary school teacher in the late 90s, who was very frustrated that she had to push for all students in their final year
to go to university.

She said so many (usually boys) clearly were not academic and would have thrived in a trade, and she felt she was thwarting their chances by recommending they apply to university instead.

Also a friend of mine lives in one of the most expensive areas in our city and has said most of her neighbours are in trades.

@TheHateIsNotGood

When I went to an ex-Poly Uni as a mature student in 2000 (Social Policy) I was 'taught' that the Grammar School system benefitted the better off as they could afford the specific tuition.

I said "but I wasn't tutored, I was an ex-pat kid newly returned from the California state-school system, read a few test-papers, took the test at County Hall (Surrey) and passed".

The Uni Tutor's response was "You must have been very bright". Er, yes, I probably was, but wasn't that the idea of Grammars?

And then there's the people I know who passed the 11+, but their Dads said "No - you're not going to school with a bunch of snobs"; and yes, those kids were "very bright" too.

Not offering any answers here, just some facts to dispel some fastly held 'myths'.

The bright untutored children are not passing now. The past 3-5 years has seen a real shift in my area. Tutoring has become the norm which pushes the pass rate up and the ones grammar was meant for out. Tutoring is also happening younger and younger, it’s now normal all through juniors.

That’s before you look at private schools being able to tutor and state not.

Grammars vs comps are not the way to get more people into trades and vocations.

@Ticksallboxes

I haven't RTFT but I agree with you!

I always remember a conversation I had with a head of year secondary school teacher in the late 90s, who was very frustrated that she had to push for all students in their final year
to go to university.

She said so many (usually boys) clearly were not academic and would have thrived in a trade, and she felt she was thwarting their chances by recommending they apply to university instead.

Also a friend of mine lives in one of the most expensive areas in our city and has said most of her neighbours are in trades.

This! A degree merely demonstrates academic skills to a certain level. Not having a degree doesn’t mean you aren’t capable of critical thinking, or anything like that. In face if that piece of paper was sooo important include a degree element in trade apprenticeships problem solved.

I know that anecdata isn’t really relevant but so many people make a good living in the trades and more importantly are inclined towards it. Not just men! But if you’re not ‘in’ the trades you don’t know how good it can be and schools etc dont encourage these options.

Also if you work for yourself you don’t have holidays sick pay etc but you get to claim a decent amount as business expenses…

@TractorAndHeadphones Also if you work for yourself you don’t have holidays sick pay etc but you get to claim a decent amount as business expenses

Not sure what you mean. Self employed can claim expenses they incur because of their self employment, i.e. travel, equipment, materials etc., in just the same way that if someone is employed, then it's their employer who pays those costs of operating. Being s/e isn't some magic where you can claim private things. S/e spend money to be able to do their trade and it's right that they can offset those costs against the income they generate.

@Ticksallboxes

I haven't RTFT but I agree with you!

I always remember a conversation I had with a head of year secondary school teacher in the late 90s, who was very frustrated that she had to push for all students in their final year
to go to university.

She said so many (usually boys) clearly were not academic and would have thrived in a trade, and she felt she was thwarting their chances by recommending they apply to university instead.

Also a friend of mine lives in one of the most expensive areas in our city and has said most of her neighbours are in trades.

Another big problem is the way that "practical" skills like woodwork, metalwork, etc is taught in schools. It seems commonplace that the teachers don't have "trades" experience/background so aren't really in the best position to teach and encourage practical skills at all.

I certainly remember my school days where the wood/metal work teachers weren't remotely interested and just watched on as we spent weeks/months making a wooden fish or a metal trowel. My woodwork teacher was an ex-maths teacher who'd had a nervous breakdown and returned to work as a woodwork teacher as it was less marking/stressful etc.

It certainly seemed like the only ones good at the wood/metal work were the pupils who had a father/uncle with their own workshop in their shed/garage, as they would knock out their fantastic 3d wooden fish in a couple of weeks so were clearly learning skills etc somewhere other than the classroom! I also remember doing GCSE Design where one lad just messed around in class all the time, not obviously doing much, but then at the end of the course, miraculously appeared with a metal framed go-cart - it was blatantly obviously he'd made it somewhere else (or someone had made it for him), because he'd certainly not made it in the classroom!

[quote user1497207191]**@TractorAndHeadphones* Also if you work for yourself you don’t have holidays sick pay etc but you get to claim a decent amount as business expenses*

Not sure what you mean. Self employed can claim expenses they incur because of their self employment, i.e. travel, equipment, materials etc., in just the same way that if someone is employed, then it's their employer who pays those costs of operating. Being s/e isn't some magic where you can claim private things. S/e spend money to be able to do their trade and it's right that they can offset those costs against the income they generate.[/quote]
Where did I say it was wrong? Do you get all of your exercise from jumping to conclusions?

Many people not in the know consider a wage superior to self-employment because of the perceived stability. And the fact that the self-employed bear all of the risk.

However a lot of supposed ‘stable’ office jobs don’t pay very well and people are at risk of redundancy. Employees pay for a lot of things out of their own pocket. Some places don’t even provide laptops. Commutes and WFH expenses aren’t reimbursed.

By comparison if you earn a good revenue from being self-employed you get to keep more of the money. An example being expensing (which even then isn’t free money, you get to claim tax relief not the entire cost). There is risk - but if you’re in a trade it’s more lucrative than a generic office job. Therefore not sure why people look down on this

There is a lot of middle class protectionism in my opinion in that high status professionals do not envisage their children going into overly manual careers. The children of graduates on the whole will take on similar roles as their parents and there is a vested interest to maintain this status quo.

Perhaps this is why we have systems that in the past have favoured wealthier families and social mobility has been hard to come by in some instances.

There needs to be more skilled trades people but how many parents will actively encourage their children to aspire to their jobs?

One of my friends seems to think there's some kind of Central Pot where people claim expenses for their own business.

She can't understand why her self employed husband stays in moderate/ cheap hotels and not nice spa ones when he travels for his own business as he can "just claim it back". From where??

There is a lot of middle class protectionism in my opinion in that high status professionals do not envisage their children going into overly manual careers.

Nepotism, or so called "networking".
And then there's supply and demand.

You can't claim hotel costs but you can put it through as expenses.
I usually try to stay somewhere as cheap as possible that is just about ok.

Sometimes you end up somewhere that is reasonable and pleasant. Often, staying somewhere not that close to where you are working makes it less expensive, and you can claim back the mileage.

@REDHERO

Perhaps more guidance to people whilst in education of what jobs are needed more. Then maybe people would train in those areas rather than on mass media degrees or on mass x y or z

Well they might if they have an aptitude for those areas. The government (and a lot of MNers) seem to think that everyone could study science/engineering if they just would. They can't. I couldn't have done. I did humanities and languages, did a law and language degree and have worked among other thing as a lawyer.

Had I done science A levels I would not have got very good grades, had I passed at all, I would have ended up at a second rate poly or university and got a third rate degree. I doubt I would have got a decent job and I wouldn't have had a STEM career.

We should be steering kids in the direction of their interests and talents, not making everything about STEM. In life you are better making the most of your strengths.

If kids are being tutored to get into grammar schools doesn't that mean they struggle once there or does the tutoring continue?

@MeredithGreyishblue

One of my friends seems to think there's some kind of Central Pot where people claim expenses for their own business.

She can't understand why her self employed husband stays in moderate/ cheap hotels and not nice spa ones when he travels for his own business as he can "just claim it back". From where??

I’m an accountant and it’s pretty common for new clients to think the costs they incur come off their tax bill pound for pound, I.e. they think that if their tax bill is £1,000, all they have to do is spend £1,000 on a laptop or stationery and pay no tax! There’s a lot of misinformation about s/e tax.

@ColinTheKoala if kids are being tutored to get into grammar schools doesn't that mean they struggle once there or does the tutoring continue?

Not necessarily. By passing, they’re demonstrating good numeracy and literacy, and ability to work under pressure, exam technique, etc. That is a really good grounding for secondary, and after all, they’re doing the same GCSEs as comps etc., so the actual work isn’t harder, they,ve just got a solid head start.

@ArseInTheCoOpWindow

Dobermansanddinner, it’s not incorrect.

I live in the North. She destroyed all the northern cities main manufacturing bases. She closed the mines, because she wanted a service economy, it’s absolutely true.

She closed the mines because it was a hell of a lot cheaper to buy coal abroad because the wage bill for the miners (which was really really good money at the time) was so expensive. Plus, she didn’t want the unions running the country - which was basically what Arthur scargill did - told the government what to do. And she didn’t want the national union of coal boards telling the conservatives what to do. Only reason I know all this is because watched documentary on it the other week.

What I want to know is if it is Tony Blair or Gordon Brown's fault that the Parliamentary standard rules don't allow Tory MPs to always get away with being corrupt sleazebugs.

@jgw1

What I want to know is if it is Tony Blair or Gordon Brown's fault that the Parliamentary standard rules don't allow Tory MPs to always get away with being corrupt sleazebugs.

Do you mean that Tories do get away with being sleeze bags or don’t get away with it?

They mostly get away with it, but not the poor misunderstood Owen Paterson. And I was wondering whether his not getting away with it was the fault of Blair or Brown.

@jgw1

They mostly get away with it, but not the poor misunderstood Owen Paterson. And I was wondering whether his not getting away with it was the fault of Blair or Brown.

Both parties are corrupt. Just like Blair with his war crimes that nobody has heard anything of since it came out. Every single MP says they’re there for the public, but they’re mostly out for themselves

Blair’s not been in charge for 14 years. The Tories hiked up fees to such an extent people will never repay their finance. Developed countries value an educated workforce with decent vocational qualifications rather than labelling an office junior’s job as an ‘apprenticeship’ and therefore not paying a decent wage. Decent apprenticeships are more competitive than some universities to get. Conditions for hgv drivers in this country are rubbish. I could go on….but hey, let’s blame Blair…

There's quite a bit wrong with the education system. My mum trained on the job to be a nurse then midwife later on. Now that's a degree which you'll pay the privilege for...why?
A degree is becoming less meaningful and not having one is not a barrier to gaining a good job apart from a narrow selection of professional roles and industries.
The education curriculum is becoming more out of touch with the real world, it's narrow and becoming focused on "regurgitate rote learning to pass the exam" rather than "educate and provide skill". Grammar school entry is massively gamified, not it's original purpose at all.
A high value is currently placed on qualifications but I predict we'll see increasing devaluation here and alternative pathways opening up.
You mention Blair but Gove has arguably had the greater negative impact. Gove's legacy is not currently a good one but out of that destruction something better will come - I'm not crediting him for that though!

Blair’s not been in charge for 14 years.

Consequences of bad decisions/policy have long lasting legacy. The worst effects also aren't often always immediately apparent.

Of course Blair isn't the only one to blame. Those who came after - the heirs to Blair - continued down the road he set us on. That doesn't exonerate Blair.

The issues you refer to - the devaluing of trade and non academic jobs, the worsening working conditions, labelling office juniors as 'apprentices' and cutting the wage - all that started under Blair. It was Blair that set us on that path. He encouraged a cheap labour economy built on debt.

But of course the heirs to Blair share the blame because they followed in his footsteps. They could have turned us onto a better path but they chose not to.

Mickey Mouse is of course a global icon worth millions, a little like Wallace and Gromit, created by graduates of MM degrees....