to blame Tony Blair for the lack of skilled workforce?

[dunkaccino]

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

@dunkaccino

In the 1980's only 15% of school leavers went into higher education leaving a good lot of people to become tradesmen/HGV drivers/butchers etc. Tony Blair decided in 1999 that 50% going to University was a great aim, which was finally achieved in 2019.

Now we have a lack of everyone useful - electricians, carpenters, fitters, engineers, butchers, drivers - coupled with a multitude of unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone.

Covid & brexit have undeniably both played a part, but AIBU to think that Blairs idea was basically a bit shit and has left us lacking in the skilled workforce needed to run the country?

Very entertaining. Was the budget really so bad that we need to discuss Blair already?

@Flumpaphone Parents can now afford to support their children through university and several years of renting in London while working at a badly paid graduate role. In the past, people didn't have that option, they had to go to work and it was frowned upon to live at home, renting was terrible so the logical thing was to start earning asap to buy your own place. We have the luxury of choice.

My DH is half german and most kids in Germany now go to grammar school. His uncle was in hauptschule and then went to IT without going to university (now earn a very high salary and owns multiple properties which is less common in Germany) but his own children both went to university including a son who is doing a degree in English. So its not just the UK.

@Blossomtoes on this point: “Particularly when they see how well trades people are paid”

Well, pay really varies. I have family business experience in joinery. What we tend to see as individual consumers is that we can’t get a joiner to call back, then we can’t get them out for weeks, then when they come the daily rate exceeds our own. And they live in the big house on the corner. So yes, that type of joiner is in demand, and can charge more as a result. Although, they don’t earn that daily rate every single day, are taxed on it, have no sick pay, have tools to buy, insurance to pay… still, no argument, my ex boyfriend independent joiner had a good income.

But the other side that I saw, was the employed in the workshop bench joiner, on NMW. These were men (they were all men) who would never take their skills self employed. Some lacked confidence. Some lacked the business ability to cost jobs. Some frankly wouldn’t get over your front door, they weren’t “socially acceptable”. There’s a shortage of skilled joiners in this area too. But - my cousin struggles to recruit. Nobody wants to be hefting planks of wood and doors around for NMW when they can get the sane money in a bar or an office. Well, not nobody! But they have turned down expansion because they can’t get people. They’re wary of apprenticeships as past experience has been unreliable people and too much paperwork. They can’t get experienced people because the pay is shit. They won’t put up the pay to get people in - because they don’t want to pay more to existing people already working for low wages.

Not all trades are well paid, and those that seem to be aren’t in all environments.

"unskilled mickey mouse degree graduates who are of no practical use to anyone."

Ouch!!!

imustlovegin so do tell me what the Conservatives have done to support vocational education? Other than T levels, which haven't really started yet? I actually agree that it's not necessarily desirable to have 50% of young people going to university, but there has to be something to fill the gap and that means investing, planning and taking charge. There are a lot of countries in which vocational education is done well. What is your valid reason why the Conservatives haven't done anything in that direction for the past 10 years? It's all very well snarking at me for not liking the Tories, but OP is snarking about someone who hasn't been in power since 2007, and a party which hasn't been in power since 2010.

It always amazes me that people think electricians/heating engineers/plumbers are not academically inclined, you need maths, physics, you have to sit yearly written exams and do practical tests to keep your qualifications up to the latest requirements and be able to run your own business on top of all that

I agree. They are much more valuable than someone learning social studies or some other obscure subject which serves no purpose really

@Flumpaphone Parents can now afford to support their children through university and several years of renting in London while working at a badly paid graduate role. In the past, people didn't have that option, they had to go to work and it was frowned upon to live at home, renting was terrible so the logical thing was to start earning asap to buy your own place. We have the luxury of choice

I don’t think a lot of parents have any choice. They have to subsidise their kids even if they can’t afford to. It’s not about choice. It’s about stupidly high house prices and low wage jobs.

Choice?! Honestly?! I wish.,,,

The lack of skills is down to tight-fisted greedy employers who don't want to invest in their people and just want to poach staff from elsewhere.

@cardibach

Get into £50k of debt But it’s not debt, not really. It doesn’t count when borrowing for eg a mortgage and if you don’t earn much you won’t pay any of it back. Most won’t pay all of it. It’s a graduate tax really.

Of course it’s debt - it's even called a loan. And the fact that people pretend it isn’t is part of the problem. It’s a 40 year debt with a usurious interest rate.

@pointythings

Well, there was this chap called Gove, who tinkered with education and focused everything on academic subjects. He could have looked at countries which value and fund vocational and skilled trade education and followed their example, but he didn't.

Remind me, which party has been in power for over 10 years now?

I agree with this and while the Blair era wasn't exactly halcyon, there was a greater range of vocational courses. Gove's era cut the funding and the narrow focus of the qualifying GCSEs for the EBac statistics politically devalued vocational courses for school survival politics.

There needs to be more opportunities for vocational and practical study/ apprenticeships.

University is too dear with the system of student finance/ debt.

Retraining in adulthood needs to be more accessible.

It's a long-running issue that always gets penny-pinched by politicians, but Blair was not the biggest player towards the current situation.

I do think students need realistic education on the reality of their employability before they go to uni though. I speak to lots of grads with academic degrees that have been led to expect a certain level of remuneration and an elevated position straight from uni. But with the volume of them, they don't get it.
The degrees some people class as Mickey Mouse often hold more weight. Media and Social Media being one.

The service and retail sectors are in for a huge shock - robots are on the way in the next decade to replace far more workers than you think.

NHS too - if GPS still insist on not seeing patients and sending them to an online or phone questionnaire, they can’t be surprised when someone points out that the patient’s computer’s is a lot cheaper than the GP is. And works a full week.

I also don't agree that "mickey mouse" degrees are mickey mouse. For example, it might be better for the country and society as a whole if we had more people who understood (a) politics and (b) social media.

Blair’s vision was to have a well educated population. Why is that a crime?🤷🏼‍♀️

The part was elected with the phrase ‘Rducatikn, education, education’ that’s what people voted for, and that’s what he gave them.

And now he’s being slagged off for trying to raise the education standards of the country. What’s have the Tories done to match that?

business experience

One thing we don't really go for in UK education is basic business skills.

It's been a long term planning failure.
Like everything else that relates to the practical running of a country.
It's both sides.

• or maybe two. 🤦🏻‍♀️

@pointythings

imustlovegin so do tell me what the Conservatives have done to support vocational education? Other than T levels, which haven't really started yet? I actually agree that it's not necessarily desirable to have 50% of young people going to university, but there has to be something to fill the gap and that means investing, planning and taking charge. There are a lot of countries in which vocational education is done well. What is your valid reason why the Conservatives haven't done anything in that direction for the past 10 years? It's all very well snarking at me for not liking the Tories, but OP is snarking about someone who hasn't been in power since 2007, and a party which hasn't been in power since 2010.

By leaving the EU and taken back control of our borders and vocational education the government under Boris have given us a wonderful opportunity. Just look at the budget yesterday and the innovations with alcohol duty, flight and tonnage taxes.

Yeah Mickey Mouse degrees….

My A level history teacher scoffed at my degree. 5 years later l was earning more than him.

I'd love to blame it all on Blair but there's been a dismal education and training system in this country for longer than I've been alive

Completely agree. I’m a science teacher and frequently I have students complain “why do I have to learn this? I want to go into my dad’s business!” when I am teaching them physics or chemistry for example despite my explanations that you have to be quite mathematically, logically and scientifically minded to excel at most trades. Back in the day, the school leavers who entered trades whilst not high-flyers, still had good competency in maths and science or were at least willing to buck up and apply themselves and learn after they realised they had wasted their time at secondary school messing about and now they had to concentrate and work hard at something to put food on the table. A lot of school leavers today simply don’t have that work ethic anymore nor are they willing to apply themselves to reach a minimum academic standard which I think is why so many employers look to the lower-level graduates to now fill this role just to get to a minimum standard of basic core subject skills.

@ColinTheKoala

I also don't agree that "mickey mouse" degrees are mickey mouse. For example, it might be better for the country and society as a whole if we had more people who understood (a) politics and (b) social media.

In what way would that benefit the country?

By leaving the EU and taken back control of our borders and vocational education the government under Boris have given us a wonderful opportunity

Yeah right😂

Sorry my post above was meant to include a quote from the poster who stated that trades require reasonable academic rigour and that I wholeheartedly agree

I grew up in the Netherlands where vocational education is a thing. Those of my peers who went into it were taught the essential skills needed to manage in business: practical maths, Dutch, also English because even back then business was becoming international. Alongside that they were taught their chosen trade from the ground up, and post 16 there was an apprenticeship system that involved 2 days in school developing teachniques and skills and 3 days a week working the job and getting paid for it.

There was nothing stopping the UK from implementing something similar. It didn't. Not under Labour and not under the Tories. And the Tories are in charge now so let's hold them accountable.