Son changing with Mum at gym swimming

[tailspin21]

Firstly, I know IABU posting in this section when it's not technically but I could really use impartial opinions and I know this is one place I can get them!
So, the conundrum. DS is 8, coming up 9 years old. We go for a swimming lesson twice a week, the pool is attached to a local gym. The men's changing room is one side of the pool and the women's is the other, so they're not side by side. Hubby can't (or won't - different thread!) come with. I am very conscious that women are changing in there - there are cubicles and DS always gets changed in a cubicle, but not every woman does not should they have to. My question is how much longer before he really needs to be going into the men's? I'm becoming increasingly aware but what is the magical cut off?! On the one hand I don't want him making other women uncomfortable. On the other, as an 8 year old alone in the men's changing room he's vulnerable himself. Am I overthinking? When should he be making that move? He's not always the most sensible but is generally not completely daft!

Which quite clearly she can as there is no law preventing it!

so it's perfectly ok to make young girls uncomfortable in their own changing rooms. Got it.

Some posters are so tied up in fighting the patriarchy that they forget this is a primary aged child they're talking about. A little boy, not some hormone charged teen.

This little boy isn't the patriarchy, he's just a little boy who's mum doesn't feel comfortable allowing into a men's changing room alone.

How about a bit of perspective eh.
Have a bit of perspective is just another patronising way of telling women and girls to 'suck it up and smile, be kind' etc, which conveniently tends to equate to 'please make sure you roll over and have your boundaries eroded'

What about the 8 year old girls who want to get changed in their single sex spaces?
What about the pre teens girls who don't want their male peers near them as they're getting undressed?
Or the girls who'll stop doing sports because they don't want to be getting undressed around boys?
Or the girls who will stop attending due to religious requirements for single sex spaces?

How about we just tell them to get a bit of perspective. The sooner they realise that in addition to men feeling entitled to erode their boundaries and to put up with being made to feel uncomfortable, there's WOMEN (and mothers on this thread) who also think these girls should put up and shut up, the better. Best make sure girls know their place from a young age. Who gives a damn about girls? A handful of mums couldn't possibly be expected to make appropriate arrangements for their sons, no, the girls of thr world should budge up and if they object then they need to get some perspective.

@KurtWildeWitchOfTheWoods

Good for you *@DriftingBlue* and I'm objecting on behalf of little boys who might feel vulnerable and uncomfortable alone with naked adult male strangers.

But the solution to this is not to say they can just keep going into the girls’ changing rooms. My own view is that they will be fine in the men’s by themselves. You disagree, so your options are find a pool with family changing or find a man to take him in to the men’s. The end.

@KurtWildeWitchOfTheWoods

Some posters are so tied up in fighting the patriarchy that they forget this is a primary aged child they're talking about. A little boy, not some hormone charged teen.

This little boy isn't the patriarchy, he's just a little boy who's mum doesn't feel comfortable allowing into a men's changing room alone.

How about a bit of perspective eh.

I completely agree. Some of the posts on here "wah wah my boy", "your precious boys" are really horrible and if they were said about little girls I would bet my right arm they would be deleted in a flash. We are talking about vulnerable little children. My almost 8 year old wouldn't be thinking about looking at girls or women getting changed. Either he wouldn't bat an eye, or he would find it a bit embarrassing himself because he would also be getting changed (I don't know because we've never been in this situation).

Oh my god the hard of thinking are out in force today.
NOBODY is suggesting your little fella is a sexual predator. They ARE saying that girls get uncomfortable when boys, probably over the age of around 8, when they are in their own changing rooms and this isn't right.

There are other solutions, and we need to work together to find the one that is right for the boys, but not by putting them in with the girls.

For clarity, again, we are talking about boys over about the age of 8

[quote Instagram]@Brefugee I am multitasking so apologies if I have a detail wrong, I have kids to tend to.
The main or sometimes only caregiver to children is more frequently the mother who has to use female facilities so if she has a dependent child with needs she should carry on taking that child.
Which quite clearly she can as there is no law preventing it![/quote]
A swimming pool can have a policy of “no males over [insert age] in the women’s changing area.”. You are not breaking the law by ignoring this but they can throw you out and bar you from the facility. Or are you saying that such a policy is unlawful and would not stand up in Court?

@Comedycook

If you're a mum of a girl who thinks an eight year old boy should change in the men's changing rooms... can I ask, would you send your 8 year old DD into a room with a man you don't know and close the door? If not, why not? And why is it ok for a boy the same age?

1 in 5 victims of child abuse is male.

Literally noone is suggesting sending your 8 year old dd into a room with a man she doesn't know.

But apparently lots of posters, including you, are happy to send an 8 year old boy into a closed room with men they don't know - and in fact consider it much less risky than allowing a disabled 8 year old boy, with his mother, in a room with girls.

What happened to this place?

@Brefugee For many years mums have just taken children with support needs in with them and ok one has objected. Just some mothers are needing reassurance that this is ok.
I actually just presumed it was an unspoken arrangement, I’m now imagining all these young special needs boys missing out on swimming. I actually think there should be more awareness for them to feel more inclusive in society.
So out of curiously what is your take on not innocent young boys with support needs but non binary adults using ladies facilities?
It’s a way of life I’m afraid, it is what it is…

*no one

@DrCoconut

I would think the odds of my young DS being assaulted by an adult male stranger in a changing room or toilet unsupervised is significantly higher than the risk of him assaulting a woman or girl while with me in a changing room or toilet (or even not with me for that matter). I fully agree that women and girls need to be safe but demonising young boys and labelling them as potential predators and rapists before they leave junior school is just wrong. They are children who can't help being male and it's really unfair that they are made to carry responsibility for some adult men's behaviour. The system at our pool is ideal. All changing takes place in unisex cubicles. There are different sizes and you choose who you do/do not share with. No one needs to feel threatened or exposed. As I said in my previous post it's just weird that communal changing rooms still exist given the issues that exist around safety, privacy, gender etc.

Bloody hell, how many times does it have to be explained that nobody is worried that the 8 year olds are going to assault the girls?! The girls are perfectly entitled not to want them there for the simple reason that they are boys and it is a societal norm in the U.K. that strangers of the opposite sex do not see each other naked after early childhood.

You do realise for the vast majority of primary school, boys and girls will be getting changed together for PE?

Not in the schools I’ve worked in beyond year 2 or 3. They’re in different halves of the classroom at the very least.

I actually find it interesting how many of us mums of boys on this thread have voted with our feet and changed pools once our child hits 8 even when its inconvenient for us to do so as we respect the girls.

I wonder how often parents are asked what they want out of changing rooms when they are designed.

But apparently lots of posters, including you, are happy to send an 8 year old boy into a closed room with men they don't know - and in fact consider it much less risky than allowing a disabled 8 year old boy, with his mother, in a room with girls

You’re conflating two things. The reason for not having boys in girls’ changing rooms is not because it is “risky.”. It’s because it violates the girls’ privacy.

Some of us disagree on the risk to the boys of using the male changing alone. But we are not weighing up two similar risks here. They are separate decision-making processes. You can agree that boys should not change in the women’s space and disagree that they should be in the men’s alone, just like you can like apples and hate bananas. You don’t hate bananas BECAUSE you like apples. They are separate things.

For many years mums have just taken children with support needs in with them and ok one has objected.

well you can't actually back this up but we do have anecdotal evidence that yes, indeed, girls do stop going into these places because they're uncomfortable.

But you go ahead and push boys into girls spaces. They know their place

I wonder how often parents are asked what they want out of changing rooms when they are designed.

that is an excellent point

Thatsplentyjack
People are saying that because there's several posters who can't seem to realise that when they bleat on about their boy and their boy wouldn't do A,BC,, that it isn't about whether their boy would or wouldn't wouldn't anything.
It's about girls wanting to get changed in single sex spaces. It's about girls not feeling comfortable getting changed when there are male peers around.

But unfortunately some posters don't want to come straight out with their real thoughts (that girls should shut up , get a grip, accept boys in their spaces regardless of whether they feel comfortable, or make their own adjustments in order that boys are prioritised in female spaces), they go down the route where they want to suggest everyone is calling their child a predator.

There are options that don't involve taking older male children into female changing where their female peers reasonable want comfortable single sex changing:

1. Dad or male friend/relative takes boy in men's
2. Use family changing
3. Use unisex facilities
4. If your preferred facility doesn't have either 2 or 3, go to a facility that has 2 or 3
5. If a boy requires additional support for a disability or special need, use accessible facilities.

Telling girls they should suck up having boys in their changing spaces is not acceptable.

Is it any wonder there's so many women who accept shit treatment from men when there's mothers who think the girls of this world should budge out the way and prioritise their boy.

I honestly think the age of 8 is too young. I think this relates to independent swimming ability more than changing room etiquette, and I don’t think this age has been reviewed since the 80s.

My 7yo is more worried about his own privacy to be looking at anyone else. Cubicles are usually an option and I keep my kids focussed on their task. If he has the choice (if DH is swimming with us) he will choose the mens every time.

In places where there are only group change options it is incredibly difficult for parents of boys. I don’t want him in the male changing room unaccompanied for the same reason that I don’t want adult male bodies in the womens changing rooms.

Some people are saying use the disabled but that doesn’t really help - disabled facilities are too few for those of us with male progeny to use them. This is not their purpose, and inconveniencing disabled people does not make a better solution.

He’s not interested in his own body or anyone else’s in a sexual way yet, I guess when he starts to be that will be the time that he has to use another changing facility.

We struggle with appropriate changing space. DS1 (10) has ASD and dyspraxia. Coz Covid stopped us from being allowed to use the disabled changing rooms. There are 3 suitable family cubicles in the changing village that we can use, but no guarentees that we can get in to them leaving DS to get cold and lose function. DS2 (8) is easily distracted and they bicker. I simply can't trust them to go into the men's together where I can't supervise them and give DS1 support if his brain is tired and overwhelmed (or indeed chivy the ditzy DS2 along).

The last time we went for a casual swim, the "Coz Covid" rules have actually concentrated people into the changing areas because of the turnover of whole sessions in one go. We ended up having to change in the corridor under our poncho towels because there wasn't an appropriate space (the disabled changing rooms have a key needing a deposit from reception so you can't change plan when caught out by circumstances).

We stopped using the communal mother and child room when DS1 was turning 9.
It's a pretty good leisure centre, one of the reasons why I chose it a decade ago, but having a son who is developmentally delayed is the lowest of the pecking order in changing facilities. It's also a battle to get people to comprehend that he has got a legitimate disability. We were bloody lucky under the tighter Covid rules that they did swim at the same time because the requirements for DS1's class were totally inappropriate for his needs (Sensory Processing Disorder and travelling home for 30 mins in soggy trunks... it was hard enough getting him to travel there in dry trunks) and I managed to sneak him through the centre with DS2 who I was allowed to supervise within the building.

I'm not asking to compromise girls and gate-crash female only spaces, but there is often a gap that ignores the fact that boys are often less mature than girls and a typical cut off of 8 is on the early side for many boys and more appropriate for girls who mature sooner.

But the solution to this is not to say they can just keep going into the girls’ changing rooms. My own view is that they will be fine in the men’s by themselves. You disagree, so your options are find a pool with family changing or find a man to take him in to the men’s. The end.

No, it's not the end. I'm a single mum to boys and girls, I don't drive. So I have to 'find a man' to help me? And I thought you lot were feminists.

I can't afford to travel out of area just to go swimming. I can't take my DS into the male changing room when I have DDs with me. I won't force my DS to go into a room of naked adult male strangers alone when he feels vulnerable doing so. I can't afford to do two separate trips to the swimming baths. I won't negate his right to privacy by making him change at the pool side for the whole room to see. And I most certainly won't make him travel home in wet trunks on a thirty minute bus ride and a walk from the city centre to our home.

By your token I should just stop taking them all together then eh. Much better to miss out on a healthy family activity then an 8yo popping into a cubicle to change quickly and waiting inside there whilst me and his sisters get changed.

I wonder how any of you manage on the bloody beach.

@Brefugee I think the occasional child with additional needs with his mum is hardly a major threat to a young girl.
Much less than the child going to the men’s alone and the risk to their safety.
Until there is adequate family/unisex facilities to accommodate I think that the young boys safety is more important than the girl feeling uncomfortable.
Also the communal changing is quite rare there are normally cubicles so everyone does get privacy.
Not everyone has the option to travel to a pool with suitable facilities.

[quote ImUninsultable]@Ozgirl75

But you're changing poolside, and I'm sure discreetly to give your son as much privacy as possible. Just like how you would change at the beach really. That's a good solution.

But look at the number of women on here insisting that their boys will be going into the women's and if women are uncomfortable with it then that's their issue. It's totally wrong. No thought for young girls, no though for privacy and dignity for women.[/quote]
I'm afraid this is the message that so many internalise. Somehow males' comfort, convenience and feelings matter more than females', and that females should cede over their privacy and dignity in order to accommodate males.

That isn't a message I want my son to grow up having received. I don't personally object to young boys changing with their mums but this is aside from the point.

The gym/pool's rules are eight. We respect those rules. That I don't want my young son unsupervised in a male changing facility is my problem to solve, not something I feel entitled to foist on other women and girls.

I have taken 15 and 16-year-old boys swimming with disabilities in places with no disabled changing rooms. I have just asked at reception where I can change them and they have always found somewhere. I am not taking a 16 year old into a female changing room, for their sake as well. Disabled boys deserve dignity.

Similar issues here @BogRollBOGOF
But with a DD 8 in tow and 2 teen ALN boys.
I paid a male babysitter for the year pre-covid, who used the disabled space with them if needed - helped with showers etc and less chaos.
From age 8/9 it simply isn't appropriate to have boys/ girls together....my disabled child may hit pubery and be unaware, your NT child may not be want my disabled child - innocent though he is stating at her - visually impaired so he's not staring, but your DD won't know that will she?....it's so complex,
And now at 8 my DD deserves the same privacy I gave the other girls from my disabled boys - even though it made my - and their life very very difficult.
Please have your boys - ALN or not, show my DD the same kindness my boys did.
What a nicer world it would be for ALL our children....😃

I can't afford to travel out of area just to go swimming. I can't take my DS into the male changing room when I have DDs with me. I won't force my DS to go into a room of naked adult male strangers alone when he feels vulnerable doing so. I can't afford to do two separate trips to the swimming baths. I won't negate his right to privacy by making him change at the pool side for the whole room to see. And I most certainly won't make him travel home in wet trunks on a thirty minute bus ride and a walk from the city centre to our home

So there you have listed loads of ways your son could swim, but you don't like any of them. Well, here's the thing, it's not anyone else's job to find a solution

So there you have listed loads of ways your son could swim, but you don't like any of them. Well, here's the thing, it's not anyone else's job to find a solution

None of which are viable.