To want to be a stay home mum?

[wanttostayathome]

So I've got about 6 months left of my maternity leave, and I already know for a fact I don't want to go back. I love being a mum and I want to take another year or two off to raise my baby before she starts school.

Financially, it would be tight and although probably doable we'd have much less disposable income. My DH thinks I should go back for the money and also to have some balance between mum life and the old me.

I however disagree. There's nothing more I want from my life than to raise my baby but I don't know how to approach this conversation with him, as I know my POV isn't the done thing and I should want to be able to juggle career and family.

So, AIBU?

Well yes fine, Betty Carver, but I reckon most children don’t give a hoot. Children just want happy parents. That’s by far and away the main thing.

Yes of course. But why does being a happy parent take as a starting point that a father is busting a gut to support the family while a mother isn't working?

For many families this would be a fast-track to misery -- I would absolutely hate not working. Clearly this doesn't work for everyone and I'm very happy for other women who want to stay at home to do so but you have no evidence whatsoever that this template with a breadwinner and a carer is the only way to create happy families.

“why does your straw poll including your husband and a small scattering of like-minded relatives give you a comprehensive overview of how 50% of the population sees these matters?”

Well anyone else care to share?

Anyone at all... ? How do your husbands feel? Or do you just go on ‘the research? and whatever flies in the MN echo chamber?

Anytime you like, hit me with “the research”

@thepeopleversuswork

Well yes fine, Betty Carver, but I reckon most children don’t give a hoot. Children just want happy parents. That’s by far and away the main thing.

Yes of course. But why does being a happy parent take as a starting point that a father is busting a gut to support the family while a mother isn't working?

For many families this would be a fast-track to misery -- I would absolutely hate not working. Clearly this doesn't work for everyone and I'm very happy for other women who want to stay at home to do so but you have no evidence whatsoever that this template with a breadwinner and a carer is the only way to create happy families.

Father- "busting a gut" Mother- "isn't working"

Surprised by this characterisation of working outside/inside the home. It certainly wasn't my experience, as someone who has had periods working FT (as a corporate lawyer), PT and as a SAHM of small children. I think most people recognise that SAHPs also work hard and contribute.

I do think that some MNers (not you especially, @thepeopleversuswork) are so keen to push the value of women doing paid work that they can be pretty dismissive of the amount and value of women's unpaid work. Funny sort of feminism.

@paloma2 I'm not disagreeing with you that the children will be fine and happy whether mum, dad, both or a mixture of parents/ childcare are providing day to day care!

My point is that prescribing one 'right' way, as you do, believing that it's a mother's instinct to stay home and a fathers instinct to work, is a very narrow outlook and one which I wouldn't want to rub off on my kids. Of course children will only have their own lived experience to go by. They're not living a parallel life to compare with!

The difference between you and I is not whether we work or not, it's that you are convinced there's a 'right' 'instinctive' way for male and female.

As it happens, I went out to work part time until my children were school age. But I never held the view that this was the 'right way' or better (or worse) than working full time or not at all. It was one way among many. Personally I would hate to raise my children within a culture of 'this is the best, the natural order of things.'

People don’t have children just to leave them in nursery to go off to work and by the time they go to school they are four years and above. So working full time is a lot easier by that point.

It’s really not, btw. I returned to work when DD was 10 months old and nothing has been quite as complicated and potentially stressful as the arrangements we’ll have to sort out to deal with school hours and term time only. If you’re not already working it seems like a terrible time to start.

@RobinPenguins I thought that too, that comment was clearly made by someone who hasn't a clue!

Could you set up your own self employed consultancy or social media VA? I use several for my companies and the good ones are very popular, but it's the kind of work you can do in hours to suit you, so a couple after bedtime, and only part time nursery for example.

I do think that some MNers (not you especially, thepeopleversuswork) are so keen to push the value of women doing paid work that they can be pretty dismissive of the amount and value of women's unpaid work. Funny sort of feminism.

I'm not dismissive of women's unpaid work at all - -far from it as I do vast amounts of it myself all the time. I absolutely respect that some families choose to have one parent at home.

But @paloma2 has said numerous times that men have a strong biological urge to provide for children, women have a strong biological urge to be at home and implied above that children cannot be happy unless this is the way the family is structured.

Not to mention some genius upthread who came out with that most offensive line of all "why have children if you pay someone else to look after them".

The thing is, some of us have literally no choice but to work for a living because we are the only person who can provide for our children - because the men who in your world are supposed to be doing that are not doing it. And many of us know we are doing a bloody job both of providing for our children and nurturing them and keeping them happy. So a) we know these claims to be bollocks and b) they are pretty insulting.

@thepeopleversuswork I don't disagree with any of that. I think it's the tone of the whole thread that struck me rather than your post in particular so apologies for quoting yours as if that were the key example.

I am struck by it though, both on this thread and others on here- a tendency of some MNers to denigrate work in the home and by extension the people who've historically done the vast majority of it, as if recognising the value of running a home and nurturing children is the same thing as saying that's all women should do.

Anyway, I'm perhaps going off on a tangent.

“But @paloma2 has said numerous times that men have a strong biological urge to provide for children, women have a strong biological urge to be at home and implied above that children cannot be happy unless this is the way the family is structured.”

Eh? Er no. No I haven’t said that at all.

Children can be happy in all sorts of set-ups.

All I’m saying that the OP’s instincts are real. I am also saying that other (most) men would not behave the way her H is.

I don’t give a hoot how other families organise themselves. As long as both parents are happy. But the OP is not happy and I felt sorry for her. I find it disturbing when women have been conditioned to believe their instincts don’t matter - “I should want this,” “it’s not the done thing,” etc etc. And threads like this really don’t help.

@thepeopleversuswork I don’t understand why you feel the need to take my comment out of proportion. You do know when you force a person to correct you and have to defend what they’ve said makes your empty assumptions even more incorrect? The child’s early years and developmental stage are the most important times as well as adolescent and adulthood, they all have important times and needs. A young infant/child needs a primary carer, not a part time parent. They are only that age/stage once. What about a mother who breast feeds? What about her time to heal? That is when the mother bonds with the child. You do know you have no idea about a child/parents relationships if you think both can work full time and still have the energy to spend time with the kids as a non working parent would. I never said a mother was more important than a father either, and I also know that in todays world a single salary can’t always support a whole family. Who can afford a childminder? Nursery? They usually cost more than what the second income brings in. I don’t know what you’ve interpreted from my comment but you’ve guessed are so wrong. A child goes to school at 4+years, which is when they are more social and also helps the stay at home parent get back in to work too. Who told me about the important years of a child’s lives? Experience and education, I suggest you do more research before writing such a poorly informed response.

I am talking about real life people. Not abstract research. Far be it from me to knock research. But this is adjacent to real life. But you don’t live in a thesis. You live with actual live humans.

All of my research has involved actual, real life humans.

Where to start with you. Are you aware that I have worked full time since my children were very young? No you’re not. You know nothing about the mum who wrote the comment. Which also makes all of your guesses and assumptions from it irrelevant and incorrect too.

I didn't make any comments I just agreed with someone else.....but i'll bite nonetheless.

Are you aware at all of the experience of working full time and having children at home
Yes, i work full time and have a child.

what’s the point of having children in the first place? If the parents aren’t going to see them?
Really? I was wondering when someone would make this comment.

It’s between the parents who works and who stays at home with the kids.
Absolutely. I've never said it isn't.

People don’t have children just to leave them in nursery to go off to work and by the time they go to school they are four years and above.

Well that's not why i had children but I did want to continue working when so we decided to use nursery. It was great and DS loved it.

So working full time is a lot easier by that point. How did you get any idea from my comment that that mums are more important than dads? And the earlier years are important as they are the time where kids develop their attachments and relationships. You do know it is a societal expectation that mums work as well as having children. Do your research, You do know that your comment full of assumptions and accusations is just overall ridiculous.

I didn't make any comments, assumptions or accusations BUT i actually do carry out research in this area, It's my job!!!

[quote LoverOfAllThingsPurple]@thepeopleversuswork I don’t understand why you feel the need to take my comment out of proportion. You do know when you force a person to correct you and have to defend what they’ve said makes your empty assumptions even more incorrect? The child’s early years and developmental stage are the most important times as well as adolescent and adulthood, they all have important times and needs. A young infant/child needs a primary carer, not a part time parent. They are only that age/stage once. What about a mother who breast feeds? What about her time to heal? That is when the mother bonds with the child. You do know you have no idea about a child/parents relationships if you think both can work full time and still have the energy to spend time with the kids as a non working parent would. I never said a mother was more important than a father either, and I also know that in todays world a single salary can’t always support a whole family. Who can afford a childminder? Nursery? They usually cost more than what the second income brings in. I don’t know what you’ve interpreted from my comment but you’ve guessed are so wrong. A child goes to school at 4+years, which is when they are more social and also helps the stay at home parent get back in to work too. Who told me about the important years of a child’s lives? Experience and education, I suggest you do more research before writing such a poorly informed response.[/quote]
Children spending all the time with one primary caregiver is a pretty recent phenomenon and it’s also quite unusual to the western world.

The first years are absolutely really important and it’s essential that babies and children develop strong attachment to their primary caregivers. But there is no strong body of evidence to suggest that doesn’t still happen for a child who goes to nursery, has a nanny or a childminder (or indeed spends some time with another family member). I spend fewer hours a week with my DD than a mother who doesn’t work but they are not necessarily doing a better job of being a mother than I am. Some probably are. Many won’t be. I have a fantastic bond with her, as does my DH.

@paloma2 you've said repeatedly on this thread that you believe it's a mothers instinct to be with her child and a father's instinct to earn to facilitate that. Wasn't it you who said your dh would work all night if that meant you could be with the child? Didn't you say it's his culture to believe a man should be the earner?

'Part time parent'!!! Miaow!

@LoverOfAllThingsPurple

Sorry, you literally said: "what’s the point of having children in the first place? If the parents aren’t going to see them?" That's about the most offensive remark you can make to a working parent.

So don't be telling me to do research before writing such a "poorly informed response".

You've just spat out onto the internet a load of incredibly poorly informed, biased bile about working parents which has no basis in fact whatsoever. So thank you but I'll defend myself against accusations by you or anyone else that I'm not entitled to have children because I work.

@paloma2

Is anyone on here an actual man? Unless you are, don’t spout about make instincts. Talk to a few men. I could put my husband on. He could tell you how he felt. I could put my brothers on and they’d tell you the same. Sorry if that doesn’t fit in with the textbook of PC, but it’s a real thing which has been experienced for millennia. We are human beings ffs!

Why are you berating people for ‘spouting about male instincts’?

Not one person has done this.

Except you.

And you’re not male.

Its pretty ironic that you are accusing others of making assumptions when your post is littered with them.

You do know you have no idea about a child/parents relationships if you think both can work full time and still have the energy to spend time with the kids as a non working parent would.

Most people I know manage it!

I never said a mother was more important than a father either, and I also know that in todays world a single salary can’t always support a whole family. Who can afford a childminder? Nursery? They usually cost more than what the second income brings in.
You know lots of women work in professional, well paid roles don't you? Plus it's also about pension contributions and future career progression.

I don’t know what you’ve interpreted from my comment but you’ve guessed are so wrong. A child goes to school at 4+years, which is when they are more social and also helps the stay at home parent get back in to work too.

It's not always that easy to get back into work if you've had a significant break.

'You do know you have no idea about a child/parents relationships if you think both can work full time and still have the energy to spend time with the kids as a non working parent would.'

I'm assuming the conclusion loverofpurple is darkly hinting at is that children of two full time working parents have worse outcomes than those of non full time working parents. I'd love to see the evidence.

I'm assuming the conclusion loverofpurple is darkly hinting at is that children of two full time working parents have worse outcomes than those of non full time working parents. I'd love to see the evidence.

Me too.....
What I do know, is that poverty is the biggest predictor of poor outcomes in children.

@SpinsForGin My original post made no accusations. How do they manage it? By the time they’ve finished work, they have around 2/3 hours a night? But then you got to remember homework and bedtime routines. Not to mention making the dinner and sitting down five minutes as well. How do they manage that? I know a few women in successful well, paid roles, but where does that come in to it? They also have help with childcare and have sacrificed some of their Childrens firsts to get where they are. I also know how NOT EASY it is to get back in to work after having kids, finding hours or an employer who accepts the fact you have kids and need hours to work around them. Or how about finding a work/home life balance? It seems to me people have misinterpreted my comment to suit issues they have had. My argument WAS FOR the working mother and working parents and how unfair the working world can be when it comes to it.

@LoverOfAllThingsPurple cmon spit it out. You're skirting around it with your faux concern: 'only 2 or 3 hours before bedtime,' 'homework as well'...

Just have the balls to say it: it's your belief that two full time working parents is detrimental to their childrens' outcomes. Except there is no evidence to substantiate that. It's just your opinion.

DH and I worked full time from when the youngest child was in reception class. Homework got done, bed time stories , conversations, cosy chats.

Some of my friends worked full time from straight after maternity leave. They coped brilliantly. Their children have grown into wonderful adults (as have mine!)

Just because you think 2 parents working in full time jobs is a 'problem' doesn't make it so.

I said you made assumptions.... which you're still doing.

How do they manage it? By the time they’ve finished work, they have around 2/3 hours a night? But then you got to remember homework and bedtime routines. Not to mention making the dinner and sitting down five minutes as well. How do they manage that?
You are making assumptions about people's working patterns. People work far more flexibly now.
Plus if there are two parents then this workload should be shared. I know it is in my house!

I know a few women in successful well, paid roles, but where does that come in to it? They also have help with childcare and have sacrificed some of their Childrens firsts to get where they are.
And? I have never missed an assembly, play, event etc. I feel that the childcare we used enhanced my child's life. He still talks about his nursery and is still friends with children he met there. It's been a good thing for him.
I certainly don't feel like I've sacrificed anything.

I also know how NOT EASY it is to get back in to work after having kids, finding hours or an employer who accepts the fact you have kids and need hours to work around them.
It's important both parents do this though and it's still fine to use childcare.

Or how about finding a work/home life balance?
Lots of people have that even if they work full time.

It seems to me people have misinterpreted my comment to suit issues they have had. My argument WAS FOR the working mother and working parents and how unfair the working world can be when it comes to it.
It's actually quite hard to understand what point you're making as you're quite contradictory and shouty. I'm not sure how asking people why they bothered having children if they're going to work is supporting working parents though.

@thepeopleversuswork You literally spat all the bile at me first. I was merely having to defend my comment about parents (namely mothers) who have to leave their kids to go to work. About the pressures to do both. My comment never ever said you weren’t entitled to work just because you had kids???, I have kids too and I work, so why would I say that? Or intend that as I sure as hell didn’t say it or even think it.
My point was why have kids if a parent has to work all the time and not actually see them. Not that they weren’t allowed to have kids just because they work. Please try to interpret my comment properly.

My message to the OP was that I had to go and work when my children were young because we weren’t able to survive on a single income (like so many families today) and I felt I missed my kids being at the sweetest stages of their lives. It’s still something I felt angry about. I had no control over it. I commented to the OP if she could do it, then do it, but overall to do what suited her, her child and her family. I don’t know how people got all the other information they think I’ve said from it.