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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find DH’s view offensive?

270 replies

Peanutbutterkid08 · 25/10/2021 14:55

I was discussing with my teenage son about how misogyny was systemic in society and how white straight men have always held privilege. Ds doesn’t really agree with this, he thinks girls and women have an ‘easier time.’
I said just because NAMALT (🙄) doesn’t mean it’s enough for men to just sit back and say not my problem. In the same way I don’t believe it is enough to just not be racist - if you don’t speak up even if not racist yourself you are part of the problem.
DH said - in a sort of patronising and angry voice ‘didn’t realise you were such a feminist sweetheart.’
Then he went onto say to ds ‘they’ll miss us when we’re gone, we hold together society.’ DH is in a high level job and is actively encouraged to recruit women into senior positions which I know he doesn’t agree with. It’s because only 3% of the the senior positions in his company are held by women.
It was the way he said it. So scathing. Now he’s stormed off upstairs.

OP posts:
TedMullins · 25/10/2021 19:58

@FurierTransform

Him storming off is a bit amateur, but you shouldn't be teaching your son about how mysogyny is so systemic society is (it isn't) - it's very wrong to project your bias on him at a very impressionable age.
Misogyny is still systemic in society though. Why are women questioned and victim blamed if they disclose an assault or harassment? Why are rape convictions so low? Why is it only ever women’s careers that suffer after having kids? Why are women still expected to take their husband’s name? I could go on.
Kotatsu · 25/10/2021 20:00

One's sex (or race, or sexuality) is not a quality to determine who deserves to be in a senior position. Diversity box ticking does more harm than good.

True for an individual, but for a company, actually you're wrong - companies with a diverse senior management team perform better - although not as a 'box ticking' exercise, but as actually seeking out good candidates who happen to have characteristics the current team is lacking.

Plus of course once you have that diverse team, it's easier to continue to recruit diverse employees - I know that when I walked into one computing lab on an interview, and there wasn't a woman to be seen (until we went to the canteen and they were there serving coffee), it was certainly a factor in choosing a different job where there were other women in the office, doing similar jobs to the one I was applying for.

Iheartbaby · 25/10/2021 20:02

Sorry, but I think your husband has a point

Speckledhem · 25/10/2021 20:02

Not blaming anyone and not angry, just have no interest in society or what men think. Not everyone shares the same opinion- I’m ok with that.

sst1234 · 25/10/2021 20:05

@HereForThis

Side note - why do men think feminist is an insult. It’s like calling someone stunningly amazing and beautiful and expecting them to be insulted. Grin

Probably the same reason white women/feminists think 'woke' is an insult and use it as one. It's like calling someone smart, aware of racial prejudice, speaking out against it and not remaining a doormat, and expecting them to be insulted.Grin

You are misunderstood if you think woke means all those rosy things. It means one thing and one thing alone - virtue signalling. Those who do good, don’t go around banging on about their good intentions and progressive views all day long. They just do.
Rosscameasdoody · 25/10/2021 20:07

@nanbread

I'm a woman and have been a partner at two different City law firms. Honestly, I have never felt nor have I ever witnessed women being disadvantaged in my industry at all. If anything, it has always been a bonus to be a woman.

Black men are known to be underrepresented in law. Women generally not. Maybe speak to some of the afro-caribbean heritage men in your law firm.

But this was about women wasn’t it ?
sst1234 · 25/10/2021 20:10

OP, from your few posts, you sound like an insufferable virtue signaller. Someone who likes to go on and on and on and on about their progressive credentials but in reality don’t have much to show for it. Sorry if that’s an unfair takeaway, but your time and language sounds like a Twitter warrior who says all the right things to join in with the work brigade.

nanbread · 25/10/2021 20:11

@Rosscameasdoody my point is that there is different underrepresentation in different jobs and industries and this is bound to impact on how those underrepresented people are treated and how they feel. Ergo, the lawyer partner person you've also quoted here not seeing the issue. Which considering she's partner level I'm astonished at, I would have thought a better level of critical thinking was needed.

EmeraldShamrock · 25/10/2021 20:12

You're right OP.
These things are important conversations in every home when raising DC to teach them awareness.

Rosscameasdoody · 25/10/2021 20:25

[quote nanbread]@Rosscameasdoody my point is that there is different underrepresentation in different jobs and industries and this is bound to impact on how those underrepresented people are treated and how they feel. Ergo, the lawyer partner person you've also quoted here not seeing the issue. Which considering she's partner level I'm astonished at, I would have thought a better level of critical thinking was needed.[/quote]
@nanbread. I didn’t take any of that from her post - she was just giving her experience in the context of the discussion.

Sparklybanana · 25/10/2021 20:30

Get them to read invisible women so they are enlightened to everyday limitations women have as opposed to men. The example that stands out is that cars are only tested using a standard man sized dummy - women's body's are different but in a car crash, our bodies aren't tested so women end up being hurt more than men.
www.forbes.com/sites/tanyamohn/2019/10/28/dummies-used-in-motor-vehicle-crash-tests-favor-men-and-put-women-at-risk-new-report-says/
The world is designed around men and not many people notice. It's easy to see that women have jobs and get paid in theory, the same as men, but in truth, women have to fight so much harder than men just to be taken seriously and most of that is hidden because as a man, especially a white man, everything is designed for you. The office is tuned to your body temperature, your phone is designed to fit comfortably in your hand, your car is designed to take a standard man. Its actually quite shocking how much we just accept as normal.

HereForThis · 25/10/2021 20:40

You are misunderstood if you think woke means all those rosy things. It means one thing and one thing alone - virtue signalling.

Woke meant exactly what I said - that's what it started out as but as usual, white people took over and bastardized it and as usual, everybody else is supposed to roll over and accept the new whitewashed meaning. So yeah it now means what you say it means so you can use it to hit others over the head with. Why not call virtue-signalling exactly that: virtue-signalling? Why lump it in with something else?

SpinsForGin · 25/10/2021 20:47

Get them to read invisible women so they are enlightened to everyday limitations women have as opposed to men.

This should be compulsory reading. Fabulous book

Smashingspinster · 25/10/2021 21:05

Sorry OP, it is very disheartening to find even quite sensible and nice men believe shit like this. But if the vast majority did not we would not still be struggling for equality. At least you got a honest look at his beliefs.

SammyScrounge · 25/10/2021 21:13

@smoko

I don’t know, it sounds to me like you were ranting at your son. The way to teach people is with positivity not putting them down

If you dislike men as a group then maybe they didn’t want to be lumped together

Maybe when your son said he thought women had it easier instead of shutting him down ask him why he feel this way?

I can’t stand people preaching to me about issues, they always end up talking at you & wanting to be right instead of having a 2 way conversation

Also the way you frame it that this is fact & how it is with men - maybe use more “I feel” or “I think” or “in my experience”

You come off in this post as being a bit arrogant to lump men together as a collective when you don’t like your husband doing that

Your son needs good strong positive female role models, not to be ranted at about the failings of males that came before him.

This I was taken aback by the lecture.about privilege and the general tone of 'men are horrible'. The boy will not respond to being hectored or being classed as the hateful sex.
jamandmarmalade · 25/10/2021 21:15

OP, i was angry on your behalf until i read the last sentence of your post 'he stormed off upstairs'. His behaviour completely undermined his own argument when he flounced stamped his feet? like a recalcitrant child.

It's laughable. He has an inferiority complex and is projecting.

Ignore and carry on.

TractorAndHeadphones · 25/10/2021 21:27

@Kotatsu

One's sex (or race, or sexuality) is not a quality to determine who deserves to be in a senior position. Diversity box ticking does more harm than good.

True for an individual, but for a company, actually you're wrong - companies with a diverse senior management team perform better - although not as a 'box ticking' exercise, but as actually seeking out good candidates who happen to have characteristics the current team is lacking.

Plus of course once you have that diverse team, it's easier to continue to recruit diverse employees - I know that when I walked into one computing lab on an interview, and there wasn't a woman to be seen (until we went to the canteen and they were there serving coffee), it was certainly a factor in choosing a different job where there were other women in the office, doing similar jobs to the one I was applying for.

It's not the 'diversity' of the senior management team that makes a company perform better. Or 'diversity' of staff for that matter. Rather - companies which are better to work for automatically have diverse candidates because they have a company culture that's supporting and accepting of differences!

That's why the push for diversity is the wrong way around.

In my experience - teams full of young, male programmers who all have similar interests. Not always full of straight white males either (plenty of gay men, or South/East Asians) but all with the same interests, break time convos about video games, all went out to the pub after work etc etc. No family responsibilites. All happily working as much OT as possible, all the time.

They weren't being anything -ist (ageist, sexist. what have you) but the team was full of the same kind of person. Age and gender was a proxy for their interests. A woman interested in the same things, or a 50 year old grandfather with the same profile would have fit in perfectly. (not saying that there aren't women interested in these things but you get my gist!)

Companies which have good diversity stats have teams with different sorts of people. Flexible working and team building deliberately to suit chosen the team. One for example had a volunteering day during work hours, in my team we all go for a meal. My last two managers are very careful to ensure that every member of the team is included in the conversation and a fair number of general topics are included (like what music people listened to or what they saw on TV). Basically there is a lot of conscious culture building , an effort to find common points that unite us. I'm the only woman but have never felt left out because everyone doesn't act all MENZ. Of course people can talk about their interests but there isn't a common one that dominates conversation to the extent that others feel left out.

Conversely... the one all woman team I was in... everybody talked about their kids all the time and I felt quite left out.

The problem?

All of this culture building takes TIME and EFFORT. and MONEY. and a long, long time... that companies don't want to invest in. They want those diversity states to look good. Like now.

So they make a big fuss about recruiting senior women, etc etc, being 'female friendly' but don't make the structural changes necessary to retain them.

Once company proudly displayed it's diverse hiring stats but neglected to mention the female retention rate. About 30% left within a year citing a lack of flexible working in practice. I know because I was in the working group.

TractorAndHeadphones · 25/10/2021 21:30

Also to add I'm not saying that things like female friendly job ads etc don't help.
But many companies focus on recruitment rather than retention because the former is easy. Gets short term gain and gives good figures to slap on reports.

Changing culture is much harder. And as I mentioned starts not with hiring women but with changing the men who are already there.

Thedogscollar · 25/10/2021 22:04

@Peanutbutterkid08

I’m upset by the view that he doesn’t believe that women are disadvantaged in anyway at all. And alongside that he’s now really angry and hugely defensive. He’s moaned before about having to actively recruit women.
He really doesn't like or respect women. Does he?
DBI78 · 26/10/2021 02:47

All of your opinions are true and valid but in terms of you and your husband you are both doing the same thing - attacking the opposite sex. Maybe you could speak to him about your views but without the blame? And explain the importance of educating your son correctly. Whilst it feels like we may never achieve it the long term aim is true equality and collaboration between men and women .

smoko · 26/10/2021 03:28

LMFAO at the white women claiming "woke" means virtue signalling. It's an African American slang derived from the word "awake" - as in enlightened. It's now used as an insult, but how funny being schooled by white folk on what it means!

Am going to go out on a real limb here & say it doesn't sound like the OP has held a paid job throughout her son's life, or at least doesn't now. Otherwise she'd have mentioned this by now - the omission about any paid work leads me to think she hasn't had any & husband makes the $.

If am wrong do apologise, but with the drip feed about household division of chores, it sounds like the traditional gender roles have been clearly defined throughout this relationship - husband is the breadwinner, wife keeps the home & performs domestic duties.

Now I understand some feminists like to argue that feminism is getting to decide what you want in life & being able to make a choice - that if you want to be a career SAHM that can be feminist too. I don't personally agree, but can understand the argument. But are these women still washing a teenage boy's clothes & cooking all the men's meals? Do they encourage more equality within the family unit?

Her son is a teenager, why has she not wanted more for herself now he's older & not gotten out there to work & make her own $? Or at the very least decided not to be the family slave & stopped doing all the domestic duties?

It is really unfair on the son if mum is lecturing him on feminist theory while not actually living a life which is condusive to what she claims to believe now. Has she lived what appears to be a comfortable, easy life at home as SAHM & just expects her son to have developed these beliefs about equality without putting in any practical effort to guide her son & instill these views?

You can't lecture people on the evils of mysogyny & then choose to scuttle off to scrub the mens' undies & make their dinner. It would be more impactful if she stopped doing all domestic duties immediately without discussion or explanation & went out to get a job, or did something dynamic with her life that commands respect.

It would be more impactful for OP to let her guard down & talk about why she is angry at herself for having the life she does, speak of her regrets, how she would have lived life differently - chosen a different life partner, or done things differently throughout son's life....discuss what she has learnt over time etc. Not lecture & rant which just puts people off!

If she is sad that his father has never changed his nappy or cooked him a meal then say that! Speak to him like an adult, like an equal. Confide in him about feelings, rather than lash out verbally in anger because of said feelings.

She is her son's biggest female role model, so speaking from the heart is more likely to help him see her as a whole person, not just "Mum" the dogsbody.

For son to say women get to cop out & have babies is red pill theory, which most young males are being exposed to online. He looks to his mother as his biggest female role model & sees someone who is "kept". Who chooses to be a slave - while she may have had limited than options in life it looks on the outside that this choice was the easier option juggling work & motherhood.

The more you do for people, the less they tend to respect or appreciate you. So son sees mum as having chosen the easy life & opted out of the working world. His dad is the one holding the family together financially. You can't cook, clean & wash without money made at a job to finance those things. He doesn't appreciate what mum does for him because he doesn't have to do these things himself & realise how tedious & mindnumbing the drudgery is. Cooking & cleaning looks easy, less demanding than the career his father has.

Maybe OP was prevented from working by husband? Or husband is controlling with family finances? Then say so! Don't just lecture to the son about how bad men are while continuing to live off them. That's just hypocritical. You will literally push someone in the opposite direction this way with such hypocrisy.

It would be better for OP to approach with insight & reflection, rather than anger - it sounds like she's angry at herself for her life choices. So say that, don't tell the son all men are bad while continuing to be a kept woman, which just alienates him & feeds into red pill theory that women are ungrateful users.

Eg: My mother is a career SAHM, yet expects me to have a high flying career she can boast about & doesn't understand how people can live off less than 60K a year - she is completely out of touch & hypocritical & becomes angry/hostile that her kid grew up to fall short of her expectations. Am getting this same vibe from OP, though could be projecting.

beautifulview · 26/10/2021 06:12

@Peanutbutterkid08

To be fair ds lives in a house where the man has never cooked a meal, changed a nappy or used the washing machine.
You’re setting a terrible example and now can’t be surprised at the outcome. Has your son ever done chores? Has he seen you go out to work? Why are you facilitating your husbands career like this and then sneering about that choice. I think you’ve got to change your circumstances if you want any kind of power. Why don’t you live on your own, go to work and make your son do his fair share when he’s with you. Then your husband will have to step up and start doing chores/shopping/parenting. Will be interesting to see if his views change when he hasn’t got his little woman at home wiping his bum. Why have you lived like this?
Peanutbutterkid08 · 26/10/2021 08:06

I do work.
I just do everything else as well. 🤷🏼‍♀️

OP posts:
SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 08:19

@Peanutbutterkid08

I do work. I just do everything else as well. 🤷🏼‍♀️
Why? This is very unfair on you and it's clear neither your husband or son appreciates it.
notanothertakeaway · 26/10/2021 08:20

@Peanutbutterkid08

I do work. I just do everything else as well. 🤷🏼‍♀️
Hmm, I'm sceptical about that. No previous mention of the added burden of working. I asked earlier if you work, and you didn't reply

IME, the men who have least respect for their partners are the men who have 'big jobs" with a SAHM / very part time work

IMHO, the best way for society to tackle misogyny is for equality to start at home. For as long as men with big jobs have wives to pick up the slack at home, other women will struggle

When men need to leave work in time to collect their children from nursery, women won't be penalised for doing the same