Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To find DH’s view offensive?

270 replies

Peanutbutterkid08 · 25/10/2021 14:55

I was discussing with my teenage son about how misogyny was systemic in society and how white straight men have always held privilege. Ds doesn’t really agree with this, he thinks girls and women have an ‘easier time.’
I said just because NAMALT (🙄) doesn’t mean it’s enough for men to just sit back and say not my problem. In the same way I don’t believe it is enough to just not be racist - if you don’t speak up even if not racist yourself you are part of the problem.
DH said - in a sort of patronising and angry voice ‘didn’t realise you were such a feminist sweetheart.’
Then he went onto say to ds ‘they’ll miss us when we’re gone, we hold together society.’ DH is in a high level job and is actively encouraged to recruit women into senior positions which I know he doesn’t agree with. It’s because only 3% of the the senior positions in his company are held by women.
It was the way he said it. So scathing. Now he’s stormed off upstairs.

OP posts:
notanothertakeaway · 26/10/2021 08:20

@smoko

LMFAO at the white women claiming "woke" means virtue signalling. It's an African American slang derived from the word "awake" - as in enlightened. It's now used as an insult, but how funny being schooled by white folk on what it means!

Am going to go out on a real limb here & say it doesn't sound like the OP has held a paid job throughout her son's life, or at least doesn't now. Otherwise she'd have mentioned this by now - the omission about any paid work leads me to think she hasn't had any & husband makes the $.

If am wrong do apologise, but with the drip feed about household division of chores, it sounds like the traditional gender roles have been clearly defined throughout this relationship - husband is the breadwinner, wife keeps the home & performs domestic duties.

Now I understand some feminists like to argue that feminism is getting to decide what you want in life & being able to make a choice - that if you want to be a career SAHM that can be feminist too. I don't personally agree, but can understand the argument. But are these women still washing a teenage boy's clothes & cooking all the men's meals? Do they encourage more equality within the family unit?

Her son is a teenager, why has she not wanted more for herself now he's older & not gotten out there to work & make her own $? Or at the very least decided not to be the family slave & stopped doing all the domestic duties?

It is really unfair on the son if mum is lecturing him on feminist theory while not actually living a life which is condusive to what she claims to believe now. Has she lived what appears to be a comfortable, easy life at home as SAHM & just expects her son to have developed these beliefs about equality without putting in any practical effort to guide her son & instill these views?

You can't lecture people on the evils of mysogyny & then choose to scuttle off to scrub the mens' undies & make their dinner. It would be more impactful if she stopped doing all domestic duties immediately without discussion or explanation & went out to get a job, or did something dynamic with her life that commands respect.

It would be more impactful for OP to let her guard down & talk about why she is angry at herself for having the life she does, speak of her regrets, how she would have lived life differently - chosen a different life partner, or done things differently throughout son's life....discuss what she has learnt over time etc. Not lecture & rant which just puts people off!

If she is sad that his father has never changed his nappy or cooked him a meal then say that! Speak to him like an adult, like an equal. Confide in him about feelings, rather than lash out verbally in anger because of said feelings.

She is her son's biggest female role model, so speaking from the heart is more likely to help him see her as a whole person, not just "Mum" the dogsbody.

For son to say women get to cop out & have babies is red pill theory, which most young males are being exposed to online. He looks to his mother as his biggest female role model & sees someone who is "kept". Who chooses to be a slave - while she may have had limited than options in life it looks on the outside that this choice was the easier option juggling work & motherhood.

The more you do for people, the less they tend to respect or appreciate you. So son sees mum as having chosen the easy life & opted out of the working world. His dad is the one holding the family together financially. You can't cook, clean & wash without money made at a job to finance those things. He doesn't appreciate what mum does for him because he doesn't have to do these things himself & realise how tedious & mindnumbing the drudgery is. Cooking & cleaning looks easy, less demanding than the career his father has.

Maybe OP was prevented from working by husband? Or husband is controlling with family finances? Then say so! Don't just lecture to the son about how bad men are while continuing to live off them. That's just hypocritical. You will literally push someone in the opposite direction this way with such hypocrisy.

It would be better for OP to approach with insight & reflection, rather than anger - it sounds like she's angry at herself for her life choices. So say that, don't tell the son all men are bad while continuing to be a kept woman, which just alienates him & feeds into red pill theory that women are ungrateful users.

Eg: My mother is a career SAHM, yet expects me to have a high flying career she can boast about & doesn't understand how people can live off less than 60K a year - she is completely out of touch & hypocritical & becomes angry/hostile that her kid grew up to fall short of her expectations. Am getting this same vibe from OP, though could be projecting.

I agree with @smoko
SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 08:32

IMHO, the best way for society to tackle misogyny is for equality to start at home. For as long as men with big jobs have wives to pick up the slack at home, other women will struggle

I do agree with this. Both me and DH work full time. However, many of DHs colleagues either don't have a young family at home or have someone at home picking up all the domestic duties. This has a huge impact on how they expect DH to work - meetings scheduled so it's impossible to do the school drop off/pick up even with after school care in place. DH is senior enough to push back but it would be more challenging for a junior member of staff.

When men need to leave work in time to collect their children from nursery, women won't be penalised for doing the same

I've been saying this for years.
It needs to be acknowledged that men are parents too and not only should they start taking more responsibility but workplaces should be offering this flexibility.

HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 26/10/2021 08:40

As pointed out by Dave Chapelle in his latest show (and courtesy of Merriam Webster) feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunity.
Frankly, any human being who sneers at that is a c**t.

HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 26/10/2021 08:46

IMHO, the best way for society to tackle misogyny is for equality to start at home. For as long as men with big jobs have wives to pick up the slack at home, other women will struggle

^^ And this.
We'll have a problem as long as women are seen as potential reproductive timebombs by employers. It'll only improve when we're all seen as potential parents and human beings with caring duties outside of work (doesn't have to be children). The problem really lies with the assumption that women = cheap carers.

SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 08:48

@HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine

As pointed out by Dave Chapelle in his latest show (and courtesy of Merriam Webster) feminism is the belief that men and women should have equal rights and opportunity. Frankly, any human being who sneers at that is a c**t.
The problem is, when you've held all the power for so long, equality feels like oppression.
Peanutbutterkid08 · 26/10/2021 09:02

You can be skeptical Not but I do work. 30 hours, so I appreciate not full time and it doesn’t pay as much as DH’s work but it is demanding.
It just means it’s me sorting out all the school runs / holidays / childcare too.

OP posts:
SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 09:04

@Peanutbutterkid08

You can be skeptical Not but I do work. 30 hours, so I appreciate not full time and it doesn’t pay as much as DH’s work but it is demanding. It just means it’s me sorting out all the school runs / holidays / childcare too.
Why do you do everything though? Why haven't you insisted DH steps up to his responsibility as a parent?
smoko · 26/10/2021 09:37

@Peanutbutterkid08 I'm sorry for assuming you don't have a paid job

But you're still being unusually cagey about WHY you do all the cooking/cleaning/kid-related stuff

Please so we can understand WHY did you choose to stay in this situation? WHY do you stay with a mysogynist when you claim to be a feminist?

Is it that single life seems scary & lonely? So you're terrified to be alone?

Do you feel it's more important for a child to not be from a "broken" home?

Do you deep down enjoy your lifestyle & not want to live somewhere which feels like a downgrade?

You could have chosen to leave, you haven't. I think you are angry at yourself here.

You could choose to be a better role model, stronger, independent.... you stay in what sounds like a marriage where you're not respected in the 21st Century - you have choices & nobody forces you to live this way.

Unless there is something am missing here.

HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine · 26/10/2021 09:37

The problem is, when you've held all the power for so long, equality feels like oppression.

Yes. But then it's their problem, not ours.

smoko · 26/10/2021 09:41

Because the way I see it you could choose to separate tomorrow, get half the pension, half the assets & live the feminist life you claim to believe in. You could set yourself up quite nicely if that's what you really wanted for yourself.

Your husband is a lost cause, your son maybe not so. But you have zero chance of making son see the world differently, unless you choose to change & do something different with your life.

Until then it seems unfair & unrealistic to lecture your son on mysogyny when you're choosing this life for yourself every single day.

grapewine · 26/10/2021 09:44

@smoko

Because the way I see it you could choose to separate tomorrow, get half the pension, half the assets & live the feminist life you claim to believe in. You could set yourself up quite nicely if that's what you really wanted for yourself.

Your husband is a lost cause, your son maybe not so. But you have zero chance of making son see the world differently, unless you choose to change & do something different with your life.

Until then it seems unfair & unrealistic to lecture your son on mysogyny when you're choosing this life for yourself every single day.

This is on point.

If you want things to change, you need to change them. Your husband and son aren't going to. Why would they - from their POV?

TatianaBis · 26/10/2021 09:49

@Peanutbutterkid08

I do work. I just do everything else as well. 🤷🏼‍♀️
Why?
SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 09:51

@HesterAndPearlInBrightSunshine

The problem is, when you've held all the power for so long, equality feels like oppression.

Yes. But then it's their problem, not ours.

I agree that it's their problem if they view equality as oppression. However, we aren't even close to equality so now is not the time to sit back and be passive.
MarieIVanArkleStinks · 26/10/2021 09:54

@SunnyMustard

Sounds like you are the one who is sexist. Putting down all men (including son and husband) based on your experience of some men.

Praise a good man in front of your son instead so that he has good examples to look up to instead of being taught all men are basically born evil. Your husband is basically saying men are not appreciated enough.

I call troll.
Irishmom7 · 26/10/2021 09:56

Might be time for them to “miss you when you’re gone”. I’d take yourself to a B&B for a week and let them see how much you do for them.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 26/10/2021 09:56

It’s like calling someone stunningly amazing and beautiful and expecting them to be insulted.

In fact, I would be.

People's opinion of my physical appearance is of zero interest to me. I haven't asked for it, and I don't want it.

ClawedButler · 26/10/2021 10:39

Some amazing gymnastics going on here, finding ways to make all this the OP's fault. If only women were the of feminist, they wouldn't be blamed for men being anti-feminist.

And yes to a PP - diversity that drives business growth is about diversity in , not ethnicity, age, sex or sexual orientation. Those things don't have any effect on how someone thinks. Creativity, charm, boldness, ingenuity, attention to detail, mathematical ability, whatever it is - these qualities are all needed in a successful business team. Melanin or chromosomes, not so much.

callmeadoctor · 26/10/2021 10:46

I dont actually understand why you are with this awful man.......................

Phobiaphobic · 26/10/2021 10:46

@Peanutbutterkid08

I do work. I just do everything else as well. 🤷🏼‍♀️
Why, OP? Seriously, WHY are you doing this?
Phobiaphobic · 26/10/2021 10:51

@SpinsForGin

IMHO, the best way for society to tackle misogyny is for equality to start at home. For as long as men with big jobs have wives to pick up the slack at home, other women will struggle

I do agree with this. Both me and DH work full time. However, many of DHs colleagues either don't have a young family at home or have someone at home picking up all the domestic duties. This has a huge impact on how they expect DH to work - meetings scheduled so it's impossible to do the school drop off/pick up even with after school care in place. DH is senior enough to push back but it would be more challenging for a junior member of staff.

When men need to leave work in time to collect their children from nursery, women won't be penalised for doing the same

I've been saying this for years.
It needs to be acknowledged that men are parents too and not only should they start taking more responsibility but workplaces should be offering this flexibility.

This is why all the quotas and initiatives to get more women into senior positions will have little effect until we tackle the underlying dynamics of childcare in society. As long as men expect women to shoulder the domestic burden of childcare and running a home, women will never be competing on a level playing field.

So many men like to think they've risen to the top on merit alone, whereas in reality they're there because they faced far fewer obstacles and could rely on everything else in their domestic lives being taken care of by someone else.

SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 11:04

As long as men expect women to shoulder the domestic burden of childcare and running a home, women will never be competing on a level playing field.

So many men like to think they've risen to the top on merit alone, whereas in reality they're there because they faced far fewer obstacles and could rely on everything else in their domestic lives being taken care of by someone else.

Absolutely.
It's no coincidence that the real inequalities kick in once women have children.

smoko · 26/10/2021 11:09

When I was in corporate land, anybody who left early to pick up their kids would be frowned upon - men & women. The attitude is that you work in corporate, pay for a childminder to do it.

The resentment as I understood it is that parents get flexibility for their life choices, yet those without children also have life circumstances which may require workplace flexibility but it wasn't provided.

I'm not saying it's the right attitude, but do remember lots of rolling eyes & comments between colleagues saying "get a fucking babysitter" if a colleague left early to pick up a child. But that culture was very work hard, play hard & young. Am sure many of those now have kids & need that flexibility themselves!

Workplace now is very flexible so it's not an issue have experienced lately.

SpinsForGin · 26/10/2021 12:17

@smoko

When I was in corporate land, anybody who left early to pick up their kids would be frowned upon - men & women. The attitude is that you work in corporate, pay for a childminder to do it.

The resentment as I understood it is that parents get flexibility for their life choices, yet those without children also have life circumstances which may require workplace flexibility but it wasn't provided.

I'm not saying it's the right attitude, but do remember lots of rolling eyes & comments between colleagues saying "get a fucking babysitter" if a colleague left early to pick up a child. But that culture was very work hard, play hard & young. Am sure many of those now have kids & need that flexibility themselves!

Workplace now is very flexible so it's not an issue have experienced lately.

This sort of attitude is so disappointing and short sighted and most definitely disproportionately disadvantages women.

However, I do agree that flexibility should be afforded to all employees, not just parents.

ChargingBuck · 26/10/2021 12:17

@XelaM

I'm a woman and have been a partner at two different City law firms. Honestly, I have never felt nor have I ever witnessed women being disadvantaged in my industry at all. If anything, it has always been a bonus to be a woman. I have seen many women (including myself) being offered partnership after they return from maternity leave.

I think you're a bit over-dramatic with your views. Sorry

Then you are a very privileged woman indeed @XelaM Possibly a woman who worked extremely hard to become so - congratulations.

But privileged Western women don't get to tell the rest of the world's women that e.g. misogyny, disadvantage, rape culture, & outright oppression no longer exist.

Why not hop on a flight, & deliver your oblivious lecture to a bunch of Afghanistani girls? I'm sure they'd love to hear your career story, but they might be a bit incredulous at your smugness.

Sceptre86 · 26/10/2021 12:26

What is the point of your post other than to mouth off? Or is that it, which is fair enough we all need a sound board sometimes? Your dh is an idiot, you chose to marry him and presumably stay with him. Your ds is going that way in terms of his behaviour Why are you surprised? Yes it's great you are addressing this with your son but maybe if you had done so with your dh years earlier your son wouldn't think this is the norm. I'm not sure what you wanted from your post.