To wonder if Mumsnet is full of men who are a waste of space

[DownToTheSeaAgain]

...or most men are a waste of space so Mumsnet just reflects the real world.

@PurpleDaisies

Police? Armed forces?

Women do both those jobs.

I never said they didn't. In fact, I clearly said that they did!

@PurpleDaisies

Police? Armed forces?

Women do both those jobs.

The vast majority of sewage workers, construction workers/scaffolders, firefighters, pilots, train drivers, HGV drivers etc are men (and law enforcement/armed forces).

If men were useless to society, then they wouldn't do those jobs would they? It's just a stupid argument.

@User135644

If ALL men were a waste of space we wouldn't be posting here because a man wouldn't have invented the internet.

Wrong.
www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-made-the-internet/

No you didn't. But this is a discussion about men being 'good' or not and the logical inference from your statement about them doing jobs that women apparently don't want to do is that this gives them the upper hand in some way.

If I've misinterpreted this I apologise but if I have then I am not sure of the relevance of your comments in the context of this thread.

No, I didn't. Your 'logical inference' is neither logical nor an inference - it's just something you made up. My comments are responding to the comments I've quoted. I don't think it's that hard to understand. My comment in answer to your initial OP was much earlier in the thread, but you'll see it if you scroll back. The discussion has developed since then and I'm responding to points that interested me.

I accept your apology, of course.

Ime and I'm getting on a bit these days (49) no namalt but too many are

I'm divorced, long term single and this is at least in part because I cba putting up with a less than worthwhile relationship as opposed to my currently happy singledom (I have other reasons why I'm unhappy with my life I have Mh issues but they are nothing to do with being single)

On here yes there's a plethora of awful men, despite the claim by some the "ltb" is advised too blithely I maintain I have yet to see a thread where this is the case where it IS blithely advised with no foundation, in the vast majority of cases the bastard an op (or even a pp in some cases) is being advised to leave is at the very least a lazy entitled git and at worst very abusive!

I'm also the "child of" domestic abuse having grown up in an abusive home and strongly feel that ESPECIALLY when there are children involved it's necessary to leave ASAP

Of my friends and family I can count on two hands the GENUINELY decent men I know who are honest, hard working and considerate and understand the issues for women and girls in a patriarchal world and who pull their weight at home as much as work.

The rest...well it's a sliding scale from "just" generally lazy/useless to full on abusive, there are at least 2 friends I know of I suspect are in coercive control type situations but haven't said as much to me so it's very hard to provide support/encourage leaving in those situations

There are also awful women of course which I am also aware of inc at least 2 situations I'm aware of where I suspect coercive control 1 of which I strongly suspect financial abuse

So women are not angels!

What’s the point in LTB, when you’ll just end up meeting someone exactly the same?

Because despite what girls And women are conditioned to believe there IS a 3rd option! We don't HAVE to be in a relationship to have value!

This needs a united movement of EVERYONE saying no more, men included.

Absolutely

And in regard to vawg I am thankfully seeing on my sm more men posting that mens behaviours need to change - admittedly these posts are coming from those shared by women and shared and posted by the men I already mentioned that I know to be decent aware men

Haven't rtft yet gotta go do something but these are my thoughts for now

PurpleDaisies
Police? Armed forces?

Women do both those jobs.
I never said they didn't. In fact, I clearly said that they did!

I was asking which situations can only be managed by men.

@beastlyslumber

What is "the patriarchy"? I don't live in a patriarchy. I am equal to men under the law and free to make my own choices. Yes there are some problems still to solve and women do get a rough deal in some areas of life. But to demand men stand up and "crush" some imaginary construct called "the patriarchy" is just ridiculous.

There are some societies which are patriarchal. The UK is not one of them. Men do not hold all the power here, by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of insulting to Iranian women, for example, to suggest an equivalence between our societies, when we have so many freedoms and opportunities they are denied on the basis of their sex, because they live in an actual patriarchy.

I wish we would stop teaching girls that they live in a patriarchy and that they are victims of this. I grew up knowing that I could make any choice I wanted to in life, and did not have to restrict myself to sex stereotypes. If anyone tried to tell me I was unequal to men or that men could tell me what to do, I would have had something to say about it! In fact, I always railed against those messages. Now it seems like feminism has taken over the job of trying to make girls and women feel shit about themselves.

Well said! The defeatist, victim-mentality permeating the movement.

I was asking which situations can only be managed by men.

Well... fathering children, then. And also fighting off other men, as I said before.

I'm not sure if there are any jobs (if that's what you mean) which can only be done by men, but I bet there are a few where you would rarely if ever see a woman doing them. While some women do hard physical and dangerous jobs, and should certainly not be made to feel they can't or shouldn't, most women don't want to and so, as a society, we rely on men.

[quote OuchWhatWasThat]@User135644

If ALL men were a waste of space we wouldn't be posting here because a man wouldn't have invented the internet.

Wrong.
www.sciencefriday.com/segments/the-women-who-made-the-internet/[/quote]
It was meant as a joke tbf.

@PurpleDaisies

PurpleDaisies Police? Armed forces?

Women do both those jobs.
I never said they didn't. In fact, I clearly said that they did!

I was asking which situations can only be managed by men.

It's not that binary though.

Can and do women do all these jobs as well? Yes.

But men have always been an essential part of the workforce. Look for example at the 'crisis' in the lack of truck drivers at the moment. There's a shortage everywhere, not just in the UK. This is a trade that's massively male dominated. Simple then, just train up thousands of women to do it, problem solved.

Mumsnet plus real life experience plus the experiences of so many friends and acquaintances have led me to conclude that sadly, most men are rotten to the point they are fit for nothing. It's shit as I love men but not so much that I'd tolerate their crappiness.

But there are also lots of jobs we rely upon men to do. Women can do them, but most don't want to. Most women choose not to go into physically demanding jobs such as scaffolding. Most women aren't interested in becoming mechanics. The armed forces are another example. Also dirty and dangerous jobs tend to attract males rather than females.

Of course women can and do perform all these jobs, but most of us would just rather not. We are really quite different from men in lots of ways. Plus we don't have the same physical strength, and that's obviously pretty fundamental.

And well said!

Can and do women do all these jobs as well? Yes

That is the only point I was making. I’m not the poster insinuating men are all useless. There are not situations that can only be managed by men as stated further up the thread.

We rely on women too, obviously! I hasten to add this, lest some eagle-eyed poster think 'aha! she thinks women are redundant and useless - I've got her!' But men and women are different - we rely on both for different parts of society to work. It's not a rigid division but generally speaking this is just how it is and it's okay. Women do get a rough deal, as I've said, in some areas of life, and some men are absolute bastards and abuse their physical power over women, and that's really scary and a big problem. And some men are lazy useless dickheads. But to come back around to the original question, it's not all men. Men in general are necessary and valuable. The "battle of the sexes" is utterly ridiculous for humans to engage in when we need each other so much just to survive.

@beastlyslumber

I was asking which situations can only be managed by men.

Well... fathering children, then. And also fighting off other men, as I said before.

I'm not sure if there are any jobs (if that's what you mean) which can only be done by men, but I bet there are a few where you would rarely if ever see a woman doing them. While some women do hard physical and dangerous jobs, and should certainly not be made to feel they can't or shouldn't, most women don't want to and so, as a society, we rely on men.

It's a self fulfilling whotsit though isn't it? Society is built by men, predicated on their physical power and ability to dominate women. Jobs which have historically been done by men largely continue to be done by men and so men do them. It is hard for the few women who want to do them because a) they are designed for men to do b) society does not encourage or support them doing man work so c) few women see it as normal to do them and don't even consider it.

The only thing that men can do that women can't (with the correct physical support) is ejaculate sperm.

@DownToTheSeaAgain

100 years ago maybe. Women can be anything we want to be. Whether Prime Minister, Home Secretary or other senior politician or civil servant; a firefighter, a scaffolder, a soldier, a sewage worker, a technician, a scientist, a truck driver, a pilot.

Nobody us stopping them. This isn't Saudi Arabia.

@beastlyslumber

We rely on women too, obviously! I hasten to add this, lest some eagle-eyed poster think 'aha! she thinks women are redundant and useless - I've got her!' But men and women are different - we rely on both for different parts of society to work. It's not a rigid division but generally speaking this is just how it is and it's okay. Women do get a rough deal, as I've said, in some areas of life, and some men are absolute bastards and abuse their physical power over women, and that's really scary and a big problem. And some men are lazy useless dickheads. But to come back around to the original question, it's not all men. Men in general are necessary and valuable. The "battle of the sexes" is utterly ridiculous for humans to engage in when we need each other so much just to survive.

I agree.

[quote User135644]@DownToTheSeaAgain

100 years ago maybe. Women can be anything we want to be. Whether Prime Minister, Home Secretary or other senior politician or civil servant; a firefighter, a scaffolder, a soldier, a sewage worker, a technician, a scientist, a truck driver, a pilot.

Nobody us stopping them. This isn't Saudi Arabia.[/quote]
They can be. But they mostly aren't.
It starts early. Girls are discouraged from the sciences and maths by social conditioning and circumstance. They have the children and return to work part time. They lose out on promotions and pay rises ... it goes on.

So technically yes they can. But, as I said before they mostly aren't. That isn't because they don't have the ability but because it never seems to be an attractive and viable option.

Interesting about the jobs.
Scaffolding tends to be something boys tend to drop into because 'you don't need gcses for that'. Girls tend to end up trying that bit harder in school but still end up in lower paying jobs. But often even what we perceive as the hard, manual labour jobs pay more for men than for women. And many of the blokes who end up in the physically hard jobs come from families which push stereotypes.

I do , however, a v middle class, v educated, not typically male bloke who was a hgv driver. He gave it up cos the conditions were appalling and he was sick of being scared at night.

@DownToTheSeaAgain

It comes down to personal choice though. A lot more women go to college now than men. Here's an article on how much that's changed for women: freshstudentliving.co.uk/2021/03/05/women-taking-over-industries/

And you still don't get boys taking childcare and health and social, or girls taking dt and saying they want to be an engineer. We're trying to persuade dd to be an engineer one day, but she wants to have a couple of kids by 20, so they can be bridesmaids when she gets married. She wants to be a model/ actress.

It was meant as a joke tbf.

Yeah,sure.
Because underestimating and not acknowledging womens achievements is just so, so funny.

Jobs which have historically been done by men largely continue to be done by men and so men do them. It is hard for the few women who want to do them because a) they are designed for men to do b) society does not encourage or support them doing man work so c) few women see it as normal to do them and don't even consider it.

There's no evidence that many girls and women want to get into jobs like working on oil rigs or in sewers. I also think that as a woman it is harder because physical strength is a big part of those kinds of jobs and most women aren't going to be able to keep up. That's not sexism, but it's reality. You can make adjustments but if it's going to affect cost/productivity then you can understand why it doesn't happen. There are some jobs that require a certain level of physicality.

Girls are encouraged to do any job they want and have been for years. I had lots of trucks to play with 50 years ago, even. Clever girls aren't pushed into secretarial work then marriage any longer. And physically clever girls are recruited to apprenticeships in the trades and forces etc. Many industries that have been male-dominated run schemes to try to recruit more women,too. STEM industries are constantly talking to girls - so it's not a problem of girls not being encouraged or not knowing they can do certain jobs.

Even traditionally male-dominated areas such as the city and politics are more open to women now. We've had two female prime ministers! (So pretty difficult to argue we live in a patriarchy.) And many industries have become way more female- dominated.

Women have more opportunities than ever. So if we are still not signing up in droves, or wanting to go up a scaffold or down a sewer, I think it's fair to wonder if that's because we don't want to and aren't suited for them. And the evidence we have suggests this is indeed the case.

I think most women set their bars way too low.

When I look around at the relationships around me, I wouldn't want to be in any of them. The women are amazing, they do majority of everything and their DHs are useless, borderline alcoholics, lazy, controlling etc. I can see it as an outsider but I think things keep them in their marriage be it kids, finances...

There are exceptions to every rule of course but I think women are much better than men. My best friend and I often joke that we could take over the world if we were married to each other, instead of men.

Me. Have had it far too easy for far too long.