To wonder if Mumsnet is full of men who are a waste of space

[DownToTheSeaAgain]

...or most men are a waste of space so Mumsnet just reflects the real world.

[quote User135644]@DownToTheSeaAgain

It comes down to personal choice though. A lot more women go to college now than men. Here's an article on how much that's changed for women: freshstudentliving.co.uk/2021/03/05/women-taking-over-industries/[/quote]
Personal choice is an interesting concept and whilst pretty much everything is available to women it is still much, much harder to go into male dominated workplaces as a woman and progress without having quite a hard time, from within the organisation and from society as a whole.

I would exclude from this discussion wholly physical employment that relies on body mass/ strength as it is not directly relevant. Many physically weaker men wouldn't be able to do these too.

My DH definitely is not a waste of space.
I don't have a low bar.

This is not a place where you would come to celebrate your lovely husband if you felt the need. Obviously most of the post on here are from women looking for advice in shitty situations so it will be more "waste of space" heavy in its posts.

@TheMoth

And you still don't get boys taking childcare and health and social, or girls taking dt and saying they want to be an engineer. We're trying to persuade dd to be an engineer one day, but she wants to have a couple of kids by 20, so they can be bridesmaids when she gets married. She wants to be a model/ actress.

I see more and more boys going into childcare and social work and nursing, but yes, it's still way more dominated by females. But that kind of makes sense, doesn't it? I mean from an evolutionary point of view. We have the babies, so we are likely to be drawn more to roles that involve empathy and caring, because that's what we're made for, biologically speaking. And it also makes sense that in a society where men are not having to go to war for women, that they are starting to become more interested in those same caring roles. (Although I think there is also something in the arguments about the feminisation of society being deleterious for males... I suspect there is a lot going on there.)

@ComeTheFuck0nBridget

I think most women set their bars way too low.

When I look around at the relationships around me, I wouldn't want to be in any of them. The women are amazing, they do majority of everything and their DHs are useless, borderline alcoholics, lazy, controlling etc. I can see it as an outsider but I think things keep them in their marriage be it kids, finances...

There are exceptions to every rule of course but I think women are much better than men. My best friend and I often joke that we could take over the world if we were married to each other, instead of men.

Agreed. Well said.

Well, it's likely true that a woman entering a male-dominated profession is going to have a harder time than a man. But so what? What about the first women to go to medical school? Did you know that the male students jeered at them and even physically attacked them, tried to stop them taking exams and all the rest of it? It was hard. But they turned up every day and FOUGHT for their rights. Now there may be more women than men in medical school. Some women had to fight and make sacrifices but lucky for the rest of us they did, and now few men would dream of suggesting that a woman shouldn't be allowed to take her place at university - they wouldn't even think it. That's how far we've come.

So maybe what's needed is just a bit more fighting spirit? Instead of telling girls "it's so hard, you're going to have a tough time, everyone's against you, you're a victim," (which I seriously doubt is the case in most industries) why aren't we telling them, "go in there and kick ass because you are as good if not better than any man and it's your right as a human being." Instead of valorising victimhood, we need to valorise courage. It's not even men's fault if we don't have the bravery to do this.

@beastlyslumber

Well, it's likely true that a woman entering a male-dominated profession is going to have a harder time than a man. But so what? What about the first women to go to medical school? Did you know that the male students jeered at them and even physically attacked them, tried to stop them taking exams and all the rest of it? It was hard. But they turned up every day and FOUGHT for their rights. Now there may be more women than men in medical school. Some women had to fight and make sacrifices but lucky for the rest of us they did, and now few men would dream of suggesting that a woman shouldn't be allowed to take her place at university - they wouldn't even think it. That's how far we've come.

So maybe what's needed is just a bit more fighting spirit? Instead of telling girls "it's so hard, you're going to have a tough time, everyone's against you, you're a victim," (which I seriously doubt is the case in most industries) why aren't we telling them, "go in there and kick ass because you are as good if not better than any man and it's your right as a human being." Instead of valorising victimhood, we need to valorise courage. It's not even men's fault if we don't have the bravery to do this.

Yes. My great grandmother was one of these women. I don't think it was ok that the men booed and hissed. I don't accept that it was just society and therefore acceptable. In the same way the obvious and continued discrimination of women in the workplace is not ok. The men who see it should be standing up against it not given a societal ok to maintain the status quo until enough women put their heads above the parapet.

@beastlyslumber

What is "the patriarchy"? I don't live in a patriarchy. I am equal to men under the law and free to make my own choices. Yes there are some problems still to solve and women do get a rough deal in some areas of life. But to demand men stand up and "crush" some imaginary construct called "the patriarchy" is just ridiculous.

There are some societies which are patriarchal. The UK is not one of them. Men do not hold all the power here, by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of insulting to Iranian women, for example, to suggest an equivalence between our societies, when we have so many freedoms and opportunities they are denied on the basis of their sex, because they live in an actual patriarchy.

I wish we would stop teaching girls that they live in a patriarchy and that they are victims of this. I grew up knowing that I could make any choice I wanted to in life, and did not have to restrict myself to sex stereotypes. If anyone tried to tell me I was unequal to men or that men could tell me what to do, I would have had something to say about it! In fact, I always railed against those messages. Now it seems like feminism has taken over the job of trying to make girls and women feel shit about themselves.

Oh dear.

How bad does it have to be to be a patriarchy in your view?

I’m in financial services. My job doesn’t involve strength, sewage, heights or breaking my nails servicing car engines.

Yet my company still pays the women less than the men. Guess how much less?

@Fiftythreepercent If you are doing the same job as a man and gettin paid less then they are breaking the law and you should take them to a tribunal.

What is "the patriarchy"? I don't live in a patriarchy. I am equal to men under the law and free to make my own choices. Yes there are some problems still to solve and women do get a rough deal in some areas of life. But to demand men stand up and "crush" some imaginary construct called "the patriarchy" is just ridiculous.

There are some societies which are patriarchal. The UK is not one of them. Men do not hold all the power here, by any stretch of the imagination. It's kind of insulting to Iranian women, for example, to suggest an equivalence between our societies, when we have so many freedoms and opportunities they are denied on the basis of their sex, because they live in an actual patriarchy.

I wish we would stop teaching girls that they live in a patriarchy and that they are victims of this. I grew up knowing that I could make any choice I wanted to in life, and did not have to restrict myself to sex stereotypes. If anyone tried to tell me I was unequal to men or that men could tell me what to do, I would have had something to say about it! In fact, I always railed against those messages. Now it seems like feminism has taken over the job of trying to make girls and women feel shit about themselves.

Well said.

The big problem with class analysis/modern feminism in my eyes is the way it lumps men into some homogenous group, which it absolutely wouldn't have the balls to do with most other demographics.

Men as a group should apparently stand up against male violence but none of the people saying this would dare argue that all the Muslim community needs to stand up against radical Islam, or the black community against knife crime.

By making all men responsible for male violence you then have the odd situation whereby those men who are fighting terrorism are also socially responsible for the actions of those they're fighting against, which is somewhat non sensical.

Mumsnet doesn’t reflect the real world at all. If you were to believe what’s on here then a majority of women or their husband’s seem to be earning in excess of 100k, having child prodigies for children, and would LTB because he ate a chocolate bar she’d been saving

I’m always very shocked at the amount of people who are clearly being abused to the extent they must be able to see it, but ask if it’s normal. But I think it’s disproportionate because this is mainly a board for complaints and moans.

I know half and half. Several very equal, and a couple of useless, selfish, loser husbands.

[quote Saucy99]@Fiftythreepercent If you are doing the same job as a man and gettin paid less then they are breaking the law and you should take them to a tribunal.[/quote]
Ever heard of the glass ceiling? At one point our corporation had 23 directors. Guess how many women?

I just have to look around at my own friends and family irl. Mind you, we don't know what goes on behind closed doors.

@PurpleDaisies

Straight in with the NAMALT

Well, they aren’t all “rubbish”. Dh isnt. He’s absolutely not perfect. Neither am I.

The people posting here will be the women whose partners are rubbish. Plenty of men are fine.

Yes. If anyone posts a "I'm happily married" "I enjoy my job and get a fair wage" "I'm in a decent house in a good area" they are shot down as being goady, boasting, overpriviledged gloatbunnies.

@Thinkbiglittleone

My DH definitely is not a waste of space. I don't have a low bar.

This is not a place where you would come to celebrate your lovely husband if you felt the need. Obviously most of the post on here are from women looking for advice in shitty situations so it will be more "waste of space" heavy in its posts.

Agree with this tbh. It would be a bit odd to post ‘Aibu that my husband is an equal partner in our household? He does his fair share of all household chores and parenting and supports me with whatever I need. What should I do?’

People (on a board such as this) are more likely to post about something they need help with and nobody needs help with their decent husband. Much like you never see ‘aibu - I love my mil and she never annoys me.’

I don't think it was ok that the men booed and hissed. I don't accept that it was just society and therefore acceptable. I don't think it was ok that the men booed and hissed. I don't accept that it was just society and therefore acceptable.

But who are you arguing against here? Who is saying that was okay or acceptable? Certainly not me - I was very clear that I think this was NOT okay. My point was that those women were incredibly brave to face down really frightening men in order to claim their right to study. And that we have made unbelievable progress as those attitudes would be virtually unthinkable in the UK now.

Yet my company still pays the women less than the men.

Are you in the UK? It's against the law for women to be paid less than men for doing the same job. The women in your company need to be making a complaint and taking the company to a tribunal. There are employment lawyers who would be fighting to represent you as this will be an easy win for them.

Please don't accept discrimination at work. You need to stand up for yourself and make sure you are getting your equal rights as they are set out in law.

How bad does it have to be to be a patriarchy in your view?

A patriarchy is a society in which only males have power and women are exluded from opportunities and freedoms on the basis on their sex. This is in no way what our society in the UK is like. A patriarchy would not have female prime ministers, to take one glaringly obvious example.

Not to say women don't still get a rough deal in some areas of life. Male violence is still a problem and maybe always will be. But if you want to pursue a career, be in a relationship with another woman, wear trousers, go out in a pair of shorts, use a gym, get a mortgage, drive a car - you don't need your father's permission. You don't need any man's permission. You have equal rights under the law.

This is something to celebrate and protect! Even fifty years ago we didn't have the rights we have now in this country. I couldn't be prouder of the women who went before us, or more grateful for the sacrifices they made so that we could have these rights and freedoms. We take them for granted but we really shouldn't.

My husband is the absolute best. So yes, nice men do exist! That being said I dated a lot of tossers before I met him, so while there are good men out there, I'm afraid they are far outnumbered by "wastes of space"...

And every "waste of space" I ever dated seemed like a nice man at first. I wish I could tell you how to tell them apart, but I'm afraid I just got incredibly lucky with my husband...

Yet my company still pays the women less than the men

That's illegal.

Mumsnet doesn’t reflect the real world at all. If you were to believe what’s on here then a majority of women or their husband’s seem to be earning in excess of 100k, having child prodigies for children, and would LTB because he ate a chocolate bar she’d been saving

Quite. As it has been pointed out several times already the Mumsnet is not exactly the best place to use as a barometer of the health of the nation's relationships. There are several time rich posters who will consistently wade in on various threads with the 'men are all shits' narrative. While I don't doubt that their personal dealings with men have been crap it seems to demonstrate a certain lack of objectivity if you think it is fine to project your anecdotal experiences across an entire group.

@User135644 @beastlyslumber

If I was stacking shelves in Tesco it would be easy to establish if men and women were paid differently

However if 100% of directors in a business of 10,000 people are all men are you so obtuse that you can’t see how a gender pay gap can arise

@PurpleDaisies

To everyone who keeps saying NAMALT and their husband is amazing and does their fair share of chores: that is not point.

It is a valid answer to the op’s question though.

Entirely.

What is the point then? Which men are we allowed to include in our opinions if not our own husbands/fathers/brothers/friends/sons etc.

Steve down the road seems cracking too if I’m allowed to count him?

I’m genuinely interested to those who hold the opinion that all men are dangerous, abusive figures who oppress all women is that how you regard your own sons?