Friend forward facing her 9 month old

[JimHairy]

My friend has a 9 month old DS who she has started front facing in the car. She has a Cosatto rotating car seat and her reasoning is that her son sometimes gets upset when rear facing and is a lot happier when facing forward. This is true, but from being in the car with him previously he’s not that bad in rear facing, just gets a bit frustrated and wriggly but he does settle after about 10 minutes.

She’s a great parent and also has a 7 year old. I’m a FTM so I feel really awkward giving her advice but it’s really really worrying me that her DS is unsafe in the car. This is compounded by a local incident that happened a few years ago where a child died in a head on collision due to an improperly fitted car seat. This is always in my mind.

So far, I’ve sent her the government advice sheet about car seat safety that says to rear face as long as possible and at least until 15 months but she just said that her car seat says it’s ok forward facing babies from 9 months. I didn’t argue, just said I’d seen that it wasn’t advised to forward face so early.

I feel I’ve done what I can by sending her the information and she’s now making an informed decision to forward face, even though it’s clearly very wrong. The other problem (although less so) is that she keeps telling me I should forward face my DS who’s the same age because he hates the car. I’ve said I’d rather he was safe and temporarily unhappy, but she argues that it’s cruel to make him so unhappy even for short periods and the chances of an accident are really low. I won’t be forward facing my DS and he’ll be rear facing as long as possible.

WWYD? Do I keep sending her info or just leave it now?

Rear facing carseats do significantly decrease the risk of severe injuries, possibly not deaths

It's far, far fewer than that, 16, 17 and 18 year olds make up the greatest number of car occupant deaths, see link above. Just 9 children between 0 and 15.

Just shy of 500 severe injuries so a bigger sample to see the benefits of rear facing.

But again, no breakdown of age groups between 0-15. Does anyone know where this information would be?

To be honest @SickAndTiredAgain there’s a huge contradiction there legally as I’ve known kids be 9kg at 7 months and 15 months is quite arbitrary because a 15 month old boy on the 91st centile is going to be a considerable amount larger than a 15 month old girl on the 2nd. I’ve not seen a car seat with an exclusive weight measure either, perhaps that’s just infant car seats that come in a travel system? I don’t know

At mamas and papas (although don’t recommend getting a seat from there) we were told 15 months legally have to rf until. Was also the same info presented at police ran infant first aid demo at a fayre we went to- figure if the police say it then that’s what I’ll go by

I agree but you can't interfere any more, you have said your bit.

We have a friend who is the biggest worrier you can imagine, she is obsessed with not medicating with even calpol, wouldn't touch herbal teas during pregnancy, freaks if she walks past a stationary car with pram (fumes), everything consumed is organic,vaccines agonized over etc etc... and yet turned her petite 12 month old to be forward facing. Its bizarre how people cant grasp the concept of relative risk. Take calpol, maybe...I dont know, have to metabolise it with your liver. Crash FF.... internal decapitation possible. How is one a worry and the other not???!

I honestly think people don't know how much safer it is, or the chances they will be in a crash (vs other perceived very unlikely and mon catastrophic risks). There also seems to be a culture around FF as a rite of passage along with weaning, walking etc. Plus older generations cannot grasp how it isn't cruel on kids who have to bend their knees.

Our tall 4 y old is happily in rear facing. He even went FF over the summer for a couple of short journeys in a very quiet safe country abroad (weighing the risks up here) and upon return, gladly went back to RF without question.

I agree with PP that this is all relatively new advice. My 8 year old for example was rear facing only until he moved from baby seat to toddler seat size then was front facing, so from about 9 months. It was 100% the done thing and quite hippy dippy to do rear facing after this age.

It’s interesting to think about drawing a line between knowing better / offering advice / “interfering”, and minding own business / protecting friendship / letting people make their own mistakes.

In this case, if (god forbid) the child got seriously hurt in an accident, would OP feel culpable? Would she actually be culpable?

If her friend went a step further and, for example, wasn’t even strapping her child in, would OP then be advised here to do more?

I generally subscribe to the minding ones own business when it comes to parenting, but there must be some things that call for action and “interference”

If her friend went a step further and, for example, wasn’t even strapping her child in, would OP then be advised here to do more?

Well obviously. I’m sure she’d also do more if she was happily letting her child play with a razor but it’s irrelevant because neither of those things are comparable to using an approved car seat correctly

If we assume there's an even spread of serious injury in each group/ year.

500/15 = 33 kids/ age group and rear facing extends from 6m to 4 years = 115 severe injuries in this age group. 75% of 115 is 86 ish.

So, 86 is serious injuries could be reduced if 75% is accurate and everyone used rear facing car seats.

And I can't find any research that suggests a reduction of risk that looks anything like 75% but happy to look at any links.

Honestly, if we gave a damn about kids as a population, we should legislate to get rid of those godawful laundry pods before we hen peck parents into buying expensive rear facing car seats.

One day you're going to be the MIL from hell, OP. If you're pestering a friend with unsolicited advice about her child and not taking her no for an answer, what on earth will you be like when it's your grandchild you're worrying about?

@Applesandpears23

I think the info on this has really changed lately. We turned my 7 year old quite early whereas my 4 year old is still rear facing. Like all things in parenting, the more you learn the better you do. However it sounds like she has dug in now so I wouldn’t send any more info and would just drop it.

What on earth do you do with your 4 year old legs?? My children was turned forward at around 1 as their legs were too long.

They have this bit in the middle called knees, that bend.

Haven't you seen the positions kids can happily sit in? They aren't adults.

Its often far more comfortable to cross their legs than to hang forward dangling in the air

I just quickly looked up the law on this. Apparently he needs to weigh at least 9kg to be forward facing, but I personally think in light of the increased knowledge and suitable car seats we have now the law needs to be updated

But unfortunately if she's within the law there's little you can do

Just because she's a second time mum doesn't mean she knows better

My dd is 20 and was forward facing from a very young age as that was what happened then, but knowledge, advice, equipment and laws change over time. By the time my siblings kids were born several years later it was all very different

@CautiousOptimist11

They have this bit in the middle called knees, that bend.

Haven't you seen the positions kids can happily sit in? They aren't adults.

Its often far more comfortable to cross their legs than to hang forward dangling in the air

You really have your children say with their knees bent on long journeys in the car? I certainly do not advocate babies sitting in a front facing car seat but a 4 year!! Sounds totally ridiculous to me having a 4 year old sat in a car with bent knees!! Mumsnet gets crazier by the day.

*sit

No @rainbowdashsneeze you can’t dismiss car seat safety facts as mumsnet crazy. Their legs bend and it’s safer for them, it really is that simple

@JimHairy just since I saw you mention a high centile, my ds rear faced until almost 5 in an axkid minikid and he's way off the chart for height and up until recently weight as well.

@rainbowdashsneeze

Legs can go wherever they want to put them

@Sleeplessem

To be honest *@SickAndTiredAgain* there’s a huge contradiction there legally as I’ve known kids be 9kg at 7 months and 15 months is quite arbitrary because a 15 month old boy on the 91st centile is going to be a considerable amount larger than a 15 month old girl on the 2nd. I’ve not seen a car seat with an exclusive weight measure either, perhaps that’s just infant car seats that come in a travel system? I don’t know

At mamas and papas (although don’t recommend getting a seat from there) we were told 15 months legally have to rf until. Was also the same info presented at police ran infant first aid demo at a fayre we went to- figure if the police say it then that’s what I’ll go by

The law regarding car seats depends on what seat you're using - R44 (weight based) or R129 (Isize, height based). The 15mo legal minimum is true for isize, but 9kg is legal for R44. R44 seats will be phased out in time, but forward facing in an R44 seat at 9kg is perfectly legal. Fucking dreadful, but legal.

If you're capable of processing basic physics principles, rear facing will ALWAYS be safer, even for adults. If you want to turn your baby forward as soon as you legally possibly can, just ask yourself 'why' first.

I'm no ERF evangelist - I turned my ds FF at about 2.6y. Not ideal, but with the car we had and the country we lived in at the time, it was the best we could do. Legal does not always equal safest. But at the same time, it's not great to try and criticise another parents perfectly legal choices.

The law needs to be made MUCH stricter imo.

Sorry OP but could never figure out people who force their opinions on people (same goes for your friend really)

You both have different views of what’s best for your children, let her crack on. What difference does it make to you? Concentrate on your kids and let her raise her children how she wants

[quote Shmithecat2]@rainbowdashsneeze

Legs can go wherever they want to put them[/quote]
This would never fit in my car. The seat we've got is a real squeeze 😳

@Frederica852

That is certainly a valid concern, however, most 25kg erf seats are actually more compact than a normal infant carrier. It's obviously car and seat combo specific, but pretty common.

[quote Shmithecat2]@Frederica852

That is certainly a valid concern, however, most 25kg erf seats are actually more compact than a normal infant carrier. It's obviously car and seat combo specific, but pretty common.[/quote]
Theres no way you'd fit this in a Polo and get someone in the front seat

Theres no way you'd fit this in a Polo and get someone in the front seat

I’m not sure the relative sizes of these cars but yeah we have an extended rear facing seat in an Aygo, and it just about fits with DH able to sit in the front passenger seat. But he isn’t very tall. If he was 6 foot then I don’t think it would work.

YABU and i say this as someone who very much believes in ERF seats, i rear faced my children until they were 3.5. The judgement about forward facing really grates on me. I remember buying a FF harnessed seat for my mum's car for my eldest who was well over 4 at this point, he was still under 15kg so couldn't just use the seatbelt. Someone on a judgey car seat group on facebook told me I was putting him in danger.

A child unhappy being rear faced is likely to distract the driver and potentially cause an accident, IMO that outweighs the small (albeit heightened) risk of a child being in a FF seat