Friend forward facing her 9 month old

[JimHairy]

My friend has a 9 month old DS who she has started front facing in the car. She has a Cosatto rotating car seat and her reasoning is that her son sometimes gets upset when rear facing and is a lot happier when facing forward. This is true, but from being in the car with him previously he’s not that bad in rear facing, just gets a bit frustrated and wriggly but he does settle after about 10 minutes.

She’s a great parent and also has a 7 year old. I’m a FTM so I feel really awkward giving her advice but it’s really really worrying me that her DS is unsafe in the car. This is compounded by a local incident that happened a few years ago where a child died in a head on collision due to an improperly fitted car seat. This is always in my mind.

So far, I’ve sent her the government advice sheet about car seat safety that says to rear face as long as possible and at least until 15 months but she just said that her car seat says it’s ok forward facing babies from 9 months. I didn’t argue, just said I’d seen that it wasn’t advised to forward face so early.

I feel I’ve done what I can by sending her the information and she’s now making an informed decision to forward face, even though it’s clearly very wrong. The other problem (although less so) is that she keeps telling me I should forward face my DS who’s the same age because he hates the car. I’ve said I’d rather he was safe and temporarily unhappy, but she argues that it’s cruel to make him so unhappy even for short periods and the chances of an accident are really low. I won’t be forward facing my DS and he’ll be rear facing as long as possible.

WWYD? Do I keep sending her info or just leave it now?

@puddlebubble

rear facing until 9 months was the recommended until recently, mine are older now, what has changed? I'd be getting rid of you, the PFB friend, utterly painful. I didn't see a seatbelt when I was young, what the hell gives you the right to criticise what she does, when she has obviously kept her eldest alive.

Why can the friend criticise and ask OP to change to forward facing but OP can't?

You will come across plenty of parents who do things that you feel are dangerous. I think leaving babies to cry themselves to sleep is dangerous for their mental health and brain development but would never tell a friend not to do it. Unless it’s something you would report to the police, it’s really their child and their choice.

@puddlebubble

rear facing until 9 months was the recommended until recently, mine are older now, what has changed? I'd be getting rid of you, the PFB friend, utterly painful. I didn't see a seatbelt when I was young, what the hell gives you the right to criticise what she does, when she has obviously kept her eldest alive.

You’d end a 15 year friendship, one where you were each other’s bridesmaids, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly because your friend sent you a link to the government website after you gave her advice to do something she didn’t agree with? After you specifically asked her what was stopping her doing that thing?

You’d do that and yet think I’m the one overreacting here?

Ok.

Both mine front faced when they reached at 10 months ish. Rear facing wasn't so spoken about then! It's still legal for a child to front face once they reach a certain weight on weight based car sets. The rest facing until 15 months is for height based seats.

Of course, rear facing is safer but it's really not your business.

@mogtheexcellent

Christ i forward faced DD in a rotating seat at 9 months. Only bought the rotating seat because better for my back. Dd would scream so much rear facing she would be sickall of which made my drivig erratic.

I would completely dump you as a friend.

Ah you must have these unicorn friends you’ve never disagreed or had unwanted advice from then?

@Summerfun54321

You will come across plenty of parents who do things that you feel are dangerous. I think leaving babies to cry themselves to sleep is dangerous for their mental health and brain development but would never tell a friend not to do it. Unless it’s something you would report to the police, it’s really their child and their choice.

I net if that friend nagged you to let your child cry to sleep and said it's cruel not to do it, you'd have something to say about it or direct them to the studies that influenced your decision. Which is what OP did.

@Meruem

My DC are adults so not something I have to think about. But I took a journey with a friend who had her grandchild in a rear facing seat (he’s 18 months). He screamed virtually the whole time. She was also lost and trying to figure out where to go, he kept screaming, she ended up virtually in tears. I think that was far more dangerous than him just facing forward in the first place! I felt sorry for the child all scrunched up just facing a seat, with nothing to look at and no interaction. I wasn’t surprised he doesn’t like it. When someone’s driving they need to be 100% concentrating on the road. A young child screaming their head off is a dangerous distraction.

But the odds are the child wasn't crying because they are rear facing. They are most likely crying because they need something or they don't want to be contained! With mirrors you can generally see and communicate better with the child rear facing than forward facing. They have far better visibility out both the sides of the car and the back window rear facing than they ever would looking at the back of the seat in front! So your arguments for forward facing in your friends position don't work!!! If a child is so upset that they are causing the driver to be distracted then the only safe thing to do is pull over and settle them!

You’d end a 15 year friendship, one where you were each other’s bridesmaids, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly because your friend sent you a link to the government website after you gave her advice to do something she didn’t agree with? After you specifically asked her what was stopping her doing that thing?

Yes, absolutely none of your business what way she places her car seat. I guarantee you there is stuff you do with your child that she internally thinks, 'what is she doing?" but doesn't say it to you and certainly doesn't email you links. Quickest way to lose a friendship, who the heck do you think you are? I'd completely dump you as a friend and wonder how I ever got to know such a person.

I genuinely would me concerned about SIL offering wine and leaving baby alone to go out for dinner! Now that really is shocking!

@puddlebubble

You’d end a 15 year friendship, one where you were each other’s bridesmaids, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly because your friend sent you a link to the government website after you gave her advice to do something she didn’t agree with? After you specifically asked her what was stopping her doing that thing?

Yes, absolutely none of your business what way she places her car seat. I guarantee you there is stuff you do with your child that she internally thinks, 'what is she doing?" but doesn't say it to you and certainly doesn't email you links. Quickest way to lose a friendship, who the heck do you think you are? I'd completely dump you as a friend and wonder how I ever got to know such a person.

Wow.

Have you read my posts? Sounds like you read the thread title and not much else.

@JimHairy

Thanks everyone who’s been constructive.

The Plan is not to mention it again (I wasn’t anyway) and when she brings it up again, to just say I’ll forward face him when I feel it’s time.

I’m out for coffee with her later, I’m going to ask if I offended her when I sent her the advice sheet and apologise if I did. She’ll probably look at me like I’ve grown an extra head but you’ve made me conscious that she might have been annoyed by that. She sent me an article about the risk of bouncers and ‘contained baby syndrome’ when the babies were about 4 months though so I can’t imagine she minded. I certainly didn’t.

Thanks again.

That is mentioning it again. Just leave it.

Why are so many of you so uptight about this?
All she did was give CORRECT guidelines to a friend she loves and cares for. It was well intentioned. As an another adult it is the friend’s right to do as she wishes but there doesn’t need to be any friend dumping or going off the deep end about “butting out” and launching personal attacks on the OP

I am astounded at how defensive and aggressive so many of you are in your respective choices. Bar advice giving aside most people are too busy getting on with their own Ives to hand wring over your parenting. They’ve forgotten about it while you’re stewing away planning to discard them form your life because they’ve undermined or interfered or affronted you on something like a car seat or weaning etc. Bonkers.
It is also both amusing and slightly concerning that something such as a different view of car seats would leave you wanting to jettison a friendship. This cannot be how you behave in real life? Surely

@puddlebubble

You’d end a 15 year friendship, one where you were each other’s bridesmaids, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly because your friend sent you a link to the government website after you gave her advice to do something she didn’t agree with? After you specifically asked her what was stopping her doing that thing?

Yes, absolutely none of your business what way she places her car seat. I guarantee you there is stuff you do with your child that she internally thinks, 'what is she doing?" but doesn't say it to you and certainly doesn't email you links. Quickest way to lose a friendship, who the heck do you think you are? I'd completely dump you as a friend and wonder how I ever got to know such a person.

Except she does. She keeps asking her to turn her baby to forward facing and told her it's cruel not to. It's right in the OP. You either didn't read it all or have ridiculous double standards.

@olidora63

I genuinely would me concerned about SIL offering wine and leaving baby alone to go out for dinner! Now that really is shocking!

I have a different friend who gives her DD a taste of her wine when we’re out for lunch. DD is 14 months. I don’t have the same relationship with that friend though so I wouldn’t dream of saying anything, the dynamic is totally different!

@puddlebubble

You’d end a 15 year friendship, one where you were each other’s bridesmaids, see each other a few times a week and love each other dearly because your friend sent you a link to the government website after you gave her advice to do something she didn’t agree with? After you specifically asked her what was stopping her doing that thing?

Yes, absolutely none of your business what way she places her car seat. I guarantee you there is stuff you do with your child that she internally thinks, 'what is she doing?" but doesn't say it to you and certainly doesn't email you links. Quickest way to lose a friendship, who the heck do you think you are? I'd completely dump you as a friend and wonder how I ever got to know such a person.

Did you read the part where this friend sent info about contained baby syndrome in relation to bouncers to the OP?

You come across as disproportionately intense and demanding it must be hard work being in your inner circle. Off with their head!

i forward faced mine quite early as they would scream the whole time or get travel sick. I cant do rear facing when im travelling either as it makes me travel sick even as an adult.
the advice about rear facing wasnt really around with ds1 though and still not a huge thing with the other kids. People would use high backed booster seats for babys that were old enough to sit unaided when ds1 was tiny.

I wonder if you could say to her something like "I just want to check that you have seen all the stuff about rear facing vs forward facing car seats as there are safety issues about forward facing, but if youve seen all this before making your choice then I wont say anything else

How far do you prioritise safety?
You know that safest is not to have your child in the car at all.
How would you feel if I approached you and suggested you didn't make that car trip to soft play or wherever, accompanied with video footage of RTAs?

She has made her informed decision and you make yours.

@DebbieHarrysCheekbones

Why are so many of you so uptight about this? All she did was give CORRECT guidelines to a friend she loves and cares for. It was well intentioned. As an another adult it is the friend’s right to do as she wishes but there doesn’t need to be any friend dumping or going off the deep end about “butting out” and launching personal attacks on the OP

I am astounded at how defensive and aggressive so many of you are in your respective choices. Bar advice giving aside most people are too busy getting on with their own Ives to hand wring over your parenting. They’ve forgotten about it while you’re stewing away planning to discard them form your life because they’ve undermined or interfered or affronted you on something like a car seat or weaning etc. Bonkers.
It is also both amusing and slightly concerning that something such as a different view of car seats would leave you wanting to jettison a friendship. This cannot be how you behave in real life? Surely

Exactly this. I think I just caught a few people on a bad morning and they fancied being awful to strangers on the Internet. Very little to do with my question and a lot to do with how they were feeling when they posted.

of all the babies wo tragically die in RTAs in the UK, how many were as a direct result of them being forward facing? It isn't as if forward facing = instant death is it?

We do actually have a rough idea of this from accident studies, unfortunately. The figures show that around 75% of children who die in forward facing seats would have been able to survive had they been rear facing, as their injuries were to the neck or spinal cord with no head injury. This is consistent across various studies. In the other 25% of cases the accident was so severe/there was intrusion into the car that would have resulted in the same outcome no matter what seat was used. But fatal accidents with children in rear facing seats only tend to occur when there is some kind of impact from another passenger/luggage in the car, when there is fire or submersion in water, when the car is basically crushed, or when the seat is wrongly installed (wrong belt routing/use with airbag).

If you have 10 theoretical children in an accident severe enough to result in at least one fatality, and they are all in forward facing seats, statistically 6 of them will survive.
If they are all in rear facing seats, statistically 9 will survive.
Completely unrestrained only 2 survive - we've come a long way.

Some studies are up to 2 years and others up to 4 but the results are fairly consistent.

Forward facing is definitely not instant death and is a significant improvement over no restraint, or an ill-fitting seatbelt. Rear facing is better still. It's the car travel which is the risk though, not forward facing as such.

I don't think people should be wasting energy worrying about other people's children who are in perfectly legal and safe seats, but there is no sense in making out that rear facing doesn't make a difference because it does. It's for individual parents to make the choice for their own family though. I don't like this whole car seat police thing that gets frothed up by FB groups and the like. Make the choice for your own children and let other people make a choice for theirs unless your opinion is actually asked for (or maybe if you see something that is clearly wrong but can be easily fixed).

@olidora63 I know! They're all older now, and lived to tell the tale. I didn't have dcs myself when she did it with hers and she's a really sensible, professional person with a very sensible job etc. As is her dh. Also I wasn't married to dh yet and was really young, so never had the confidence to say anything. But yes, now I've got dcs, I look back and think WTAF were they doing?? It wasn't decades ago either. Recent enough for it not to be the norm.

@BertieBotts

of all the babies wo tragically die in RTAs in the UK, how many were as a direct result of them being forward facing? It isn't as if forward facing = instant death is it?

We do actually have a rough idea of this from accident studies, unfortunately. The figures show that around 75% of children who die in forward facing seats would have been able to survive had they been rear facing, as their injuries were to the neck or spinal cord with no head injury. This is consistent across various studies. In the other 25% of cases the accident was so severe/there was intrusion into the car that would have resulted in the same outcome no matter what seat was used. But fatal accidents with children in rear facing seats only tend to occur when there is some kind of impact from another passenger/luggage in the car, when there is fire or submersion in water, when the car is basically crushed, or when the seat is wrongly installed (wrong belt routing/use with airbag).

If you have 10 theoretical children in an accident severe enough to result in at least one fatality, and they are all in forward facing seats, statistically 6 of them will survive.
If they are all in rear facing seats, statistically 9 will survive.
Completely unrestrained only 2 survive - we've come a long way.

Some studies are up to 2 years and others up to 4 but the results are fairly consistent.

Forward facing is definitely not instant death and is a significant improvement over no restraint, or an ill-fitting seatbelt. Rear facing is better still. It's the car travel which is the risk though, not forward facing as such.

I don't think people should be wasting energy worrying about other people's children who are in perfectly legal and safe seats, but there is no sense in making out that rear facing doesn't make a difference because it does. It's for individual parents to make the choice for their own family though. I don't like this whole car seat police thing that gets frothed up by FB groups and the like. Make the choice for your own children and let other people make a choice for theirs unless your opinion is actually asked for (or maybe if you see something that is clearly wrong but can be easily fixed).

That’s brilliant information, thank you.

@TheOrigRights

How far do you prioritise safety? You know that safest is not to have your child in the car at all. How would you feel if I approached you and suggested you didn't make that car trip to soft play or wherever, accompanied with video footage of RTAs?

She has made her informed decision and you make yours.

Giving a friend advice or not aside it is an informed decision to keep a 9 month old rear facing as extensive impartial technical research has shown. Putting them forward facing is a combination of factors relevant to an individual’s circumstances : which are mostly not coming from an informed stance but rather preference and necessity. That is not a criticism but an observation and a there is a difference between the two scenarios.

@toastofthetown

I don't think there's another option than to leave it. If it's an older style seat where forward facing is allowed from nine months then she's not breaking the law even if it's not the safest choice. On the same note though, she should stop commenting on your choice to keep your son rear facing. And if she keeps bringing it up then you wouldn't be wrong to tell her why you make the choice you did.

You do sound judgemental about her choices in general though (weaning, car seat, jumper). Maybe she feels that and that's why she's attacking your choices.

No, with the older reg (R44) seats, they can forward face a 9kg, not 9 months.

@BertieBotts

of all the babies wo tragically die in RTAs in the UK, how many were as a direct result of them being forward facing? It isn't as if forward facing = instant death is it?

We do actually have a rough idea of this from accident studies, unfortunately. The figures show that around 75% of children who die in forward facing seats would have been able to survive had they been rear facing, as their injuries were to the neck or spinal cord with no head injury. This is consistent across various studies. In the other 25% of cases the accident was so severe/there was intrusion into the car that would have resulted in the same outcome no matter what seat was used. But fatal accidents with children in rear facing seats only tend to occur when there is some kind of impact from another passenger/luggage in the car, when there is fire or submersion in water, when the car is basically crushed, or when the seat is wrongly installed (wrong belt routing/use with airbag).

If you have 10 theoretical children in an accident severe enough to result in at least one fatality, and they are all in forward facing seats, statistically 6 of them will survive.
If they are all in rear facing seats, statistically 9 will survive.
Completely unrestrained only 2 survive - we've come a long way.

Some studies are up to 2 years and others up to 4 but the results are fairly consistent.

Forward facing is definitely not instant death and is a significant improvement over no restraint, or an ill-fitting seatbelt. Rear facing is better still. It's the car travel which is the risk though, not forward facing as such.

I don't think people should be wasting energy worrying about other people's children who are in perfectly legal and safe seats, but there is no sense in making out that rear facing doesn't make a difference because it does. It's for individual parents to make the choice for their own family though. I don't like this whole car seat police thing that gets frothed up by FB groups and the like. Make the choice for your own children and let other people make a choice for theirs unless your opinion is actually asked for (or maybe if you see something that is clearly wrong but can be easily fixed).

That's me you're quoting. As I said, mine rear faced till just shy of 4yo. Just turned ds recently and he will be 4 soon. I know it makes a difference, but the post you're quoting from was in response to another post which had questioned why we don't interfere with other parents' choices more, because "those babies are people who deserve protection" and "why do we take a 'your kid your problem' approach?", "I'd rather lose a friendship than let a baby die in a RTA" (paraphrasing a little as I'm on my phone, so not going back to quote, sorry).

I wasn't saying there is no difference between rear facing and forward facing, but I was questioning how far that person would go to protect children unrelated to her from all potential threat, since she took issue with the general consensus which is the same as yours; she's wrong, but it is not really your business.

You've done what you can. If she brings it up again just say you're not discussing it anymore as you both disagree.