To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

Personally I will check into a home or do away with myself when I reach that stage.

Another one saying Dignitas will look after me in my old age, if my old age is anything like the one endured by my DPs. From the money they left me in their wills I have put some aside as my 'Switzerland fund' because I will not put my DSs through what I went through when I was unable to put my parents out of their misery as they battled horrendous terminal illnesses (but not cancer) with no treatments or cures available, just an awful, horrific decline and a horrific death. The notion that palliative care solves the issue isn't true at all. We wouldn't put a dog through an end of life like that, so why do we do it to humans? Medical science has a lot to answer for - along with all the miracle cures it has given us, it has also given us the ability to keep people alive beyond the point where nature would probably have stepped in way before, but without the means to actually end the suffering that sometimes comes with that extension of life

The young and healthy who, in previous generations would have cared for the elderly and infirm,

Hmmmm, can I think of a young healthy male looking after his elderly parents - no, or at least not if there was a healthy young female in the family, or even a not particularly young or healthy female. The burden usually falls on one female member of the family.

And the answer many give is palliative care but palliative care if you are bed bound and doubly incontinent isn't that great an option.

We’ve recently had to move my Dad into a dementia care home after a long slow slide into not being capable of caring for himself. I’m amazed at how much happier he is there. Even his facial features have lost the strEss in them I saw before. He is so “jolly” - the only word that captures it. One of his carers said that people with dementia try to hide it at the start, and at the moment it all “comes out” and they stop hiding and it’s a moment of empowerment for them. I’ve worked in care homes so I am not blind to the issues or how difficult some lives can become at this stage, but his experience has given me a new perspective. Previously I would have been of the “ticket to Switzerland” ilk, I’m not so sure now.

I assume Amazon will bring out an Amazon Astro for seniors that will bring me tea and wipe my ass.

Its tricky because having watched elderly relatives with advanced cancer in severve pain I am not able to understand why medics are so fucking tight with pain relief and insist on giving minimal comfort.
When you have a shattered pelvis and advancex cancer in 4+ organs an extra dose of morphine is neither here nor there and i would have loved to end their pain.

This is a different, but very related issue.
You've got the fact that HCPs and care workers are too worried about being accused of a 'chemical kosh' on people suffering so they can have a 'quiet life' instead of the actual and usual motivation that they don't want people to suffer.
Hands are effectively tied, especially if someone can't effectively communicate their need for pain relief to someone, but rather show it by being agitated, shouting, hitting out etc. We're told that we're only giving them pain relief so we can be lazy and not deal with challenging behaviour, rather than give someone enough pain relief to you know, stop them being in pain.
Huge bug bear of mine and an example of how the people recieving the services suffer because of the general negative view we have of anyone in this type of work.

@Joystir59 I’m afraid I disagree with your statement about not for profit in care.

Profit and private enterprise is what has funded new care home stock with spacious en suite rooms and facilities and continues to advance care for things like dementia. When care homes were run by the councils they were largely converted old houses which were in a terrible state. Profit leads to and encourages investment which is needed in this industry.

The poor wages issue is largely due to the sheer volume of people needing care and the way the industry is funded by government (ie, poorly).

I think you should only have euthanasia if you're terminally ill or in extreme pain that prevents you from doing anything. I don't believe we should use it to get rid of the elderly. I'm almost 30 and I believe that in my lifetime we will likely have more effective treatments for dementia. Also, if we cleaned up the environment and our diets that would help a lot.

@SugarMouseTown

And don’t underplay people’s will to live. I’ve had family determined to live despite of terrible terrible quality of life

It works the other way too. I've been a carer for family members and worked as a professional carer. I've had more than a few clients who had next to no quality of life and who were begging to die. My Grandmother with dementia was begging me to die. I had one client who was fully compos mentis but would literally scream his head off in rage and in terror because he had no quality of life and wanted to die. He still haunts me,

Every one is different and what's intolerable for one is somewhat bearable for another but having seen what dementia does to people, and I have another relative going through it right now, I find it infinitely crueler than death. Torturous doesn't begin to cover what it's doing to my relative. There's nothing casual about my desire to die rather than be forced to live with dementia. I just have to hope that there's something in place that allows me that option if I do develop it.

I totally agree. My teenagers groan when I try to talk about this, and DH disagrees with me. I don't want my life artificially extended if I have no quality of life, but he won't talk about it - and has made it clear that he wants me and the dcs to care for him to the end should anything happen to him, regardless of the impact for all concerned. We are both mid-fifties and I have a chronic condition which is already impacting my mobility and increases my risk of stroke. I'm not saying I want to end it all now, but I want some choices when the time comes. One of the key differences I think is that I work in health and social care, and he doesn't, so I have seen the reality of the impact of severe stroke and dementia.

100% assisted dying. I don't have any children and I hope that having children becomes a rare thing in the future if this planet is to survive and the existing ones have a pleasant life.

Id be hypocrite I I then expected to kept alive and looked after by young people beyond the point I cease to be of use.

I agree people should be able to choose to die but I think people are being flippant around this. I get the sense some people think once you become a slight burden you need to end your life. I'm not sure your families will see it that way. And if you want to end your life because you need some care, what does that mean for younger adults and children who need care already? And what about those who simply dont want to live? Again, I do believe people should have a choice but it opens up a lot of scenarios.

I honestly believe the best thing we can all do is be as healty as we can. I know illness can strike at anytime, my young relative is fighting stage 4 cancer, and my healthy MIL died of cancer in her 60s, however, if we eat well, exercise and maintain a healthy body it does give you better odds, and it will help our children and society in general. It's our responsibility to be healthy.

I want my doctors to be attracted to the job because they strive to save lives, I want them to do their best, to push the boundaries of science, to find a way.

I don't want them to be killers. I take it that is what we are asking for. People trained in the most rewarding, beautiful of professions... saving lives, removing pain, helping people live their best life... being told they have to administer drugs to end the lives of the hopeless cases by accountants... eventually.

I think back in previous generations when children (daughters mainly) looked after their ageing or frail parents, they may have died of things that are now quite treatable, so maybe didn't get to the age or stage that some elderly people are now.
Its not possible to work full time and be a full time carer to someone. So something has to give. Not everyone can afford to give up their job to look after a parent and even if they did it may not even be practical with looking after young (or even teenage) children.
I have a relative (in their 90s) who is in a retirement village. They have their own flat but can have meals delivered and there are nurses and medical care on site.

Maverickess I agree with you re the reluctance to give people the medication they need. Obviously there's a limit but withholding because of those fears causes a horrendous amount of suffering.

We had to go through a bit of an ordeal for my relative to be prescribed risperidone. Before she was constantly agitated and couldn't sit still for ten seconds to do anything as she was so distressed. The risperidone allowed her to relax just enough to be able to sit and read a magazine, have tea and cake, watch a programme on tv or hold a conversation. Without the medication she would have been able to do nothing but pace. Unfortunately now that level of risperidone is no longer enough as her condition has progressed so we're having to go through the process of having a larger dose/alternate drugs authorised again which is prolonging her suffering.

Assisted dying wouldn’t work for dementia past the very early stages, because it’s quite common for people to fail to understand that there’s anything wrong with them. If you can’t remember at any given moment that you can’t remember anything, e.g. that you can no longer even make yourself a cup of tea, or that your spouse died 10 years ago, it’d be a bit difficult to make an informed choice.

@Maverickess

Its tricky because having watched elderly relatives with advanced cancer in severve pain I am not able to understand why medics are so fucking tight with pain relief and insist on giving minimal comfort. When you have a shattered pelvis and advancex cancer in 4+ organs an extra dose of morphine is neither here nor there and i would have loved to end their pain.

This is a different, but very related issue.
You've got the fact that HCPs and care workers are too worried about being accused of a 'chemical kosh' on people suffering so they can have a 'quiet life' instead of the actual and usual motivation that they don't want people to suffer.
Hands are effectively tied, especially if someone can't effectively communicate their need for pain relief to someone, but rather show it by being agitated, shouting, hitting out etc. We're told that we're only giving them pain relief so we can be lazy and not deal with challenging behaviour, rather than give someone enough pain relief to you know, stop them being in pain.
Huge bug bear of mine and an example of how the people recieving the services suffer because of the general negative view we have of anyone in this type of work.

This is really interesting because i assumed there was some good reason for it, but had not realised it was this i assumed it was risk of accidental overdose/being accused of "murdering" a relative. Such a complex and nuanced area.

Assisted dying is not the magic bullet, so to speak. You need capacity to make that choice and people with dementia lack capacity. The most scary illness for me in old age is dementia and assisted dying will not protect me from that.

The mystical other cultures where women sactifice to care for their old don't usually have access to the modern medicine that enables people to live for longer and longer with a range of co-morbidities that would have killed them a generation ago. Add to that a falling birthrate and you have a deomgraphic time bomb - there simply won't be enough carers.

I don't know what the answer is, but I know it is not assisted dying. Which I support, but think is a human rights issue entirely separte to the care crisis.

[quote Youngatheart00]@Joystir59 I’m afraid I disagree with your statement about not for profit in care.

Profit and private enterprise is what has funded new care home stock with spacious en suite rooms and facilities and continues to advance care for things like dementia. When care homes were run by the councils they were largely converted old houses which were in a terrible state. Profit leads to and encourages investment which is needed in this industry.

The poor wages issue is largely due to the sheer volume of people needing care and the way the industry is funded by government (ie, poorly).[/quote]
I agree that government funding is woefully inadequate for social care, and that nationalising of social care might lead to a more consistent, but lower level of care being delivered, and won't improve carers lot, though that said when 'council' homes were still a thing, they always paid better, gave better terms and you got a pension with them as an employee of the council.

But, profit making needs to be addressed in the care industry. All businesses cut costs to increase profits, and in care those lower costs come with the fact that people get poorer care and staff get lower wages in order to maintain the profits. We need things like definitive staffing ratio's that are enforced, rather than the current policy of basically leaving it up to the provider to decide, and accountability for healthy profits to shareholders while the food budget is pence a day for each resident and staff are expected to work for free (handovers don't tend to be paid time for example) and there aren't enough staff to provide adequate care to everyone meeting their needs consistently, and their training is the bare minimum and often at least partly funded by the government.

I personally believe that every penny someone pays or is paid on their behalf, for care, should be put into that care, but, who is going to want to run a business like that?

It's a bloody mess.

I have a relative (in their 90s) who is in a retirement village. They have their own flat but can have meals delivered and there are nurses and medical care on site

I have a relative in the same position. £350,000 for the apartment, £450 per week service/food/laundry charges. More should personal care be required.

Getting old is not so easy for the poor.

Depends how "bad" I am but I would want my DDs to look after me! I will look after my own mum if she requires it in the future. It's not selfish IMO it's what good families are supposed to do.

Why do we always assume it's the daughters who will do this. Why? It's so bloody sexist. It infuriates me, particularly because it lets men completely off the hook.

This is such a huge issue and so many good points made already.

Government policy in this area has completely failed to keep up with changes in society & demographics. Only the other week Sajid Javid said that ppl who needed care should look up their families but the various conservatives health and social care ministers have been saying that for years

However in reality, 4 million people over 50 don’t have any children at all. Half of people over 75 live alone. Families have shrunk in each generation so that people are living longer but have fewer siblings/nephews/nieces etc, people have children much later - by the time my niece who is an only child is 40, my sister and bil, my sister & me will all be in our late 70s/early 80s

The idea that women because let’s be honest when the government said family it means women will have the inclination/, money,/capacity/time to give up work and look after elderly parents & relatives is nonsensical

But working in the age sector, it is quite apparent that the government has no plan for social care beyond families can do it/when ppl need a care home they shouldn’t have to sell their house

Beyond that, clueless!

It's very difficult. As a child elderly relatives live with us, and moderate caring responsibilities were dealt with in family. I would always imagine that I would have done part on that

I now don't think that's possible for lots of people and for me that's predominantly due to house prices.

I can't see a time in which me and my partner aren't both needed to work full time for our mortgage.

I don't live near my parents (1hr + away) to be able to do quick house calls most days, because I can't afford a house in that area (it's a normal area but just south east).

I also don't have the space in my house, at this point we can't find a house within our budget with a downstairs loo so if my parents or inlaws age the way their parents have they won't even be able to visit us, let alone stay.

When my grandparents were unwell less than 20 years, my parents had a bug enough house, down stairs loos etc, my in-laws remortgaged to build an extension (we are unlikely to have that much equity in houses), both had flexibility to work less. My in-laws are in their seventies when I'm not yet 30 and at the complete bottom of the housing ladder. Grand parents having children older means that those children are more likely to be in a less financially secure position, still building careers or having very young children them selves. Caring in your 50s looks very different from caring in your 30s

In q previous role I had a professional interest in design for aging population. The housing that allows for healthy aging isn't being built much anymore, look at how few bungalows there are.

We advised new build companies to no avail. Increasingly with space at a premium, rooms are smaller, things like bath seats, toilet frames, profiling beds no longer fit in rooms. Downstairs toilets are common, but they are tiny so rails etc don't tend to fit, and they tend to be unusable for frailty.

Historically people used to leave major hospitals after ops etc and be set up in one room, eg a bedroom with a special bed, frame, komode but now the rooms don't allow for that. Things like dining rooms that were often hastily converted as they are on the ground floor, but now complete open plan is common to the extent the kitchen, lounge has zero walls, dining rooms a thing of the past and this means relatives can no longer take family members in. Even things like stairs are often built now with turns in which is an absolute nightmare if you're trying to fit a stair lift (bumps the price up massively too!)

In some ways it's like we have forgotten that people age, no longer design things like houses and access for that (which would keep people in their homes longer and reduce care bills), but also very little of society is designed to let kids meet parents aging needs

It's one thing to be absolutely done with living, with no quality of life and ready for death, it's a completely different thing to be worrying about care home costs and how much money your children will inherit.

I agree.

I also think care needs to be better.

I like to think I'll be the one in a care home sitting listening to my audiobooks then telling everyone it's time for bingo or a board game and to cheer up!!!