To wonder who will look after us in old age?

[malificent7]

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

Higher wages for carers are needed for them to stay.

@Ledition

Depends how "bad" I am but I would want my DDs to look after me! I will look after my own mum if she requires it in the future. It's not selfish IMO it's what good families are supposed to do. However, full-time around the clock care with zero respite is different but if I just need a bit of help with showering/cooking well they can bloody well step up

You are perfectly entitled to make your own decision to look after your own DM, but expecting your DDs will look after you, when they have their own lives to lead, is horrible and controlling.

My grandmother cared for her mother in her home until death. My mother and aunt cared for their father and mother (gran lived to be 104). They died in her home. I took care of my mother and aunt (childless, lived to 103) both died at home. I raised three children, worked full time and lived nextdoor to my mother and aunt.
I did not think of it as a "sacrifice". It is what families do. At least, our family. One of my daughters has, of her own choice, bought a house one street over from mine. I suspect they have talked about it among themselves. I will be as independent as I can for as long as I can and when I can't I hope they will be there

So - not one man has had to step up, and you've already got the woman from the next generation sorted?

I'd also challenge whether you were providing care.for two very elderly people the way most people are talking about it here if you were working full time with 3 young children.In reality most older people needing care can't be left for 10 hours at a time.

I'm from a culture where elderly are cared for at home, and in early stages it can be lovely. But now care needs tend to be far more intense - it's not cooking and company, it's cleaning poo-smeared walls after an accident or being physically assaulted by a confused person with dementia. I'd hate for my any of my DCs to do that for me.

@SpookyPumpkinPants you are spot on with your comment. It’s oh so easy to be gun ho about ‘choosing to die’ until you’ve reached an age where your family and friends are popping off at an alarming rate and you realise that very soon you could be next.

As for families caring for the elderly there are so many variables that it’s impossible to predict who will do what etc.

Care homes need to care for their staff more and stop putting profit before everything else.

@rainbowheart1
Love how people are saying their kids will look after them….I don’t think so, life is going to be very different for our children, the will be working to the bone, in a harder and very much longer rat race….just to afford a home. They won’t be able to take time off for care, they will be working.
Agree, although the time frame is now, working full time, looking after kids, cant stop work due to finances & pension provision. Have to work to state pension age & the add paltry pot style pension.
It is scary

Japan has an aging population and someone there has invented these amazing robot arms to help the older people caring for the infirm to lift them. There are also robots that will help remind you to take your pills etc and probably in not too distant future robots to keep us basic company/play simple games etc to keep our minds going leaving, leaving hopefully the human workers to respond to the more individual needs of the people they are looking after.

www.latimes.com/world-nation/story/2019-07-25/desperate-for-workers-aging-japan-turns-to-robots-for-healthcare

@Youcancallmeval

If I get to a point I need care, I will be booking a one way ticket to Switzerland.

This. My mum has also said it’s her intention when she reaches a certain point and has said we should make a holiday of it before her ‘appointment’.

Assisted dying is NOT the answer to the care crisis. It is terrible that it is discussed in the same context.

goodnightgrandma spot on.
The thought of going in a care home horrifies me. I want to be able to say, fuck this life, time to go. The thought of bring immobile, reliant on others to bathe me and losing my mind to boot is not a life I want to lead.
I have been a member of Dignitas for years

It’s very easy to say oh yes, dignitas when you’re healthy, never experienced life changing health issues and not yet middle aged… as several of the posters must be even if they haven’t cited their age but those of elderly relative.

But frankly you don’t know what it’s like to be on the other side. At what age do you call it? When you’re living a certain quality of life, most are reluctant to let go. And then when that quality has gone, you’re probably lacking capacity to take that decision. And don’t underplay people’s will to live. I’ve had family determined to live despite of terrible terrible quality of life.

@IncessantNameChanger

I think once I become a burden and loose my mind I would be already dead. I agree they will have to rethink assisted death.

The alternative is often degrading and inhumane.

Mind you saying that I have already had a conversation with my teens based around my mum choices. She is getting increasingly infirm and has lots of free cash. She keeps telling me she cant do the garden, cant do the bigger house work tasks but point blank refuses all suggestions to get around it like hiring a two weekly cleaner or once a month gardener. But refusing help she stays young in her mind ( but also falls and ends up in hospital after laying on the floor for 24 hours before calling for help).

She also now wants to move. I have told my boys they need to be very blunt if I have the capacity to help myself but refuse to. Also I will downsize or adapt my home around the time I get mobility issues. Not start thing about it when I'm almost 80.

I most definitely no not want to burden my kids

Ha! My mother used to say this. Now exactly the same situation with her.

@MamsellMarie

There should be research by then indicating the best way to age - eg the degree of exercise you need to stay mobile and steady on your feet (thought it won't go on indefinitely obviously). Once my DM moved to an old person's house from her house with the steep staircase it mean within a few weeks she was no longer any good at going up steps. When you're elderly if you don't use it you very quickly lose it. Once you sit about all day (because you are old and tired rather than lazy) you very soon loose mobility. Then you can't get to the loo, stand in the kitchen to make a cup of tea. There should be plans for individuals by OT on what exercise they must do each day to keep fit. And it should be provided for everyone. Research is also adviising on changes to diet eg to maintain a healthy microbiome. This needs to be given to anyone over 75.

My mum never smoked, barely drank, ate very healthily, maintained 9.5stone weight all her adult life, was very active.

Didn't stop her having a massive stroke and becoming paralysed and unable to speak at 74. Having a healthy lifestyle obviously lessens your chances of disease but it's not a magic charm.

I have worked for decades dealing with care packages for older people with advanced dementia. It’s a horrid, frightening & undignified state of being, & to “expect” your children or relatives to manage you if you should ever be in that condition is not only ill-informed but shows an astonishing lack of awareness into the realities of round-the-clock care, distressing behaviours & terribly terribly hard, depressing work.

I won’t be “expecting” my children to sacrifice their happiness and their lives to wipe my shit off the walls, stop me physically/verbally attacking people, putting me back to bed five, six, seven plus times a night.

I’ll pull the plug before I get to that stage. No doubt in my mind. Why oh why we think, as a society, it’s morally right to keep people going beyond the point at which they want to go on, or can go on with what I would call a good quality of life (and capacity intact) - surely this needs re-evaluating? It’s no-one else’s decision to make but the individual’s, but what I’m saying is people should be encouraged to future plan for their old age, & to take ownership over their decisions regarding their care.

Many many individuals haven’t even thought about the possibility they may get dementia, or what they want to happen in the event that they have a long-term debilitating health condition. They haven’t prepared their homes for their old age, they’re in denial.

Sorry but I see this state of denial as a kind of selfishness. I will be planning ahead, to minimise my reliance on others as much as possible.

@Mummyoflittledragon

It’s very easy to say oh yes, dignitas when you’re healthy, never experienced life changing health issues and not yet middle aged… as several of the posters must be even if they haven’t cited their age but those of elderly relative.

But frankly you don’t know what it’s like to be on the other side. At what age do you call it? When you’re living a certain quality of life, most are reluctant to let go. And then when that quality has gone, you’re probably lacking capacity to take that decision. And don’t underplay people’s will to live. I’ve had family determined to live despite of terrible terrible quality of life.

This.

If you'd asked Mum 5 years ago what she'd want to happen in the circumstances that have happened to her she'd have said she'd rather be dead.
If you asked her this morning I suspect she wouldn't say yes, pop me down to Dignitas.

I do think we aren’t far from a time (within the next 20 years) that it will be commonplace for people to ‘make arrangements to go’.

I kind of hope by the time I’m there it is a choice I can make. My god everytime I go to the local hospital (recently had 2 complicated pregnancies so used to go a fair bit) the corridor were just endless incredibly elderly, frail and miserable people being pushed around.

They looked like the living dead, I mean it looks hideous and miserable I don’t ever want to be like that. I asked my nurse friend if they were just really poorly and would recover, she said no there’s just a stage of age where the human body really tries to die but now the NHS intervene so much they’re essentially just sticking plasters over holes in a sinking ship. ‘There is no recovery for people at that stage, there’s no quality of life, the best we can do is keep them alive until handover’

@Namechangedforthethousandthtim

Assisted dying is not an option to many people for religious and moral reasons. I certainly wouldn't do it for religious reasons. That CAN'T be the fall back plan, surely 😳 Making assisted dying the norm is, in my opinion, one step away from mass involuntary extermination - if it becomes the norm, people will feel forced or morally obliged to do it. The young and healthy who, in previous generations would have cared for the elderly and infirm, will over time begin to think "Why should we care for X? Everyone else is euthanising themselves - if X won't do it too, it's reallg not my problem." To me, assisted dying becoming the norm is really, really dark.

Christ, what an extreme view! As you say though, you wouldn’t want to do it for religious reasons and that’s fair enough and *your* choice.

Not everyone shares your beliefs though and some would see it as way to die with dignity without having to endure years of pain, both emotional and physical.

Assisted dying will eventually mean a health service totally run by accountants... oh...

carers need appreciation, in the way of career structure, better pay, better working hours, better recognition, pension, sick pay

Lobbyist will have successfully pushed through legalisation of euthanasia.
Which i didnt realise is a massive feminist issue until i read some great articles i now cant find links to!
The basic jist is now you are old and are now a worthless burden now as women are only good as long as they are useful or "stop being a selfish old bitch grandma. Your life is basically over anyway and you want to piss £ 000s up the wall on care despite no quality of life while poor Timmy and suzi who you CLAIM to love are just starting out and need money for university fees and home deposits."
Some of the euthanasia scandals i read about on the continent were pretty alarming (people essentially being euthanised by doctors without proper consent/by accident)

Its tricky because having watched elderly relatives with advanced cancer in severve pain I am not able to understand why medics are so fucking tight with pain relief and insist on giving minimal comfort.
When you have a shattered pelvis and advancex cancer in 4+ organs an extra dose of morphine is neither here nor there and i would have loved to end their pain. But if it is legalised where does it start and stop..all cases were essentially known terminal at diagnosis.. should they have just got it over with and killed themselves there and then to save on £ and suffering??

There are luxury retirement villages that cost £££ popping up near me so i think you'll see a big delta opening up between those who can afford to live and those who can't.

@Youcancallmeval

If I get to a point I need care, I will be booking a one way ticket to Switzerland.

Exactly! Same for me. An awful death is one that’s dragged out over years, with no dignity and no agency.

In countries where assisted dying is legal there hasn’t been a rush: I work with the elderly and while some say “oh I wish I was gone” most of them still fight on, taking multiple medications to stay alive and opting for hospital treatment when they could refuse and take their chances.

As PP said, the most important thing is to save up if possible, accept that life savings are to pay for care, and to accept outside care when the time comes. And if you really don’t want to stay alive write an advance decision, and stop taking the bits of your medication that keep you alive.

And don’t underplay people’s will to live. I’ve had family determined to live despite of terrible terrible quality of life

It works the other way too. I've been a carer for family members and worked as a professional carer. I've had more than a few clients who had next to no quality of life and who were begging to die. My Grandmother with dementia was begging me to die. I had one client who was fully compos mentis but would literally scream his head off in rage and in terror because he had no quality of life and wanted to die. He still haunts me,

Every one is different and what's intolerable for one is somewhat bearable for another but having seen what dementia does to people, and I have another relative going through it right now, I find it infinitely crueler than death. Torturous doesn't begin to cover what it's doing to my relative. There's nothing casual about my desire to die rather than be forced to live with dementia. I just have to hope that there's something in place that allows me that option if I do develop it.

Carers need proper wages and good employment terms and conditions. The profit needs taking out of this industry. Care homes and care in the he home services need to be run on a not for profit basis so that care costs are kept down and the wages of those that do the work are increased.