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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To wonder who will look after us in old age?

572 replies

malificent7 · 22/10/2021 23:16

I am curently a care assitant temp until my permanent job in healthcare is sorted. It is very rewarding but hard, dirty work for little money.
They are understaffed and many are leaving due to bad pay. As we are an aging population aibu to think this is going to get worse? How can we get carers to stay,?

Disclaimer...there is no way i want dd to look after me...not fair on her...i'd rather go to a home.

OP posts:
MamsellMarie · 23/10/2021 06:09

You can't decide to die from assisted dying once you have dementia - you'd have to decide before then so it isn't that easy. Once you have dementia you don't have capacity to make those decisions.

Avarua · 23/10/2021 06:11

I'm in the assisted dying camp too. If we believe it's ethical to bring babies into the world artificially then it's equally ethical to die when we've had enough or are too confused/decrepit to cope without constant nurse care.

MultiStorey · 23/10/2021 06:14

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

MamsellMarie · 23/10/2021 06:15

There should be research by then indicating the best way to age - eg the degree of exercise you need to stay mobile and steady on your feet (thought it won't go on indefinitely obviously). Once my DM moved to an old person's house from her house with the steep staircase it mean within a few weeks she was no longer any good at going up steps. When you're elderly if you don't use it you very quickly lose it.
Once you sit about all day (because you are old and tired rather than lazy) you very soon loose mobility. Then you can't get to the loo, stand in the kitchen to make a cup of tea. There should be plans for individuals by OT on what exercise they must do each day to keep fit. And it should be provided for everyone.
Research is also adviising on changes to diet eg to maintain a healthy microbiome. This needs to be given to anyone over 75.

Notsurewheretogo · 23/10/2021 06:25

I am also in favour of assisted dying.

But also, I can't imagine expecting my kids to care for me because 'culture'. I am mixed heritage and my fathers culture cares for their elderly. And in most cases it makes everyone miserable. Including the person being cared for, because often their needs are not met.

I helped care for my grandad, it nearly killed my aunts (there were no boys in that generation) who were all still working, me and my cousins did as much as possible but we all worked, had young kids.

Eventually, an incident happened when he was left alone and he ended up sectioned under the mental health act and it was taken out of our hands. We couldn't provide what he needed unless we could provide constant 24 hour supervision, the right equipment and had extensive training in his condition. This was the first time he was left alone, in 4 months and it was for an hour.

I want my kids to be able to enjoy their own kids and grandkids. Enjoy their own life. I don't want their physical and mental health impacted by my care needs.

Suzi888 · 23/10/2021 06:29

“We should be supporting this elderly/ infirm, not killing them off” - Absolutely, IF that is what someone actually wants and they decision should be made whilst young and sound of mind or at least be an option.
There’s a lot of romanticising when it comes to death and dying and illness, that isn’t always the case.

You cannot stay awake 24 hours a day and monitor someone with dementia in some cases, one of DM’s friends had it, it’s not just someone who forgets things and needs help washing and eating. DM’s friend would make her excrement into ‘sweets’ and attempt to eat it, wipe it on walls, her bedding, etc. She would let herself out and wander the streets, she was abusive, aggressive and scared. She would scream constantly at her daughter to get away from her. It was horrendous. Who the hell would want to live like that. In the end she had to go into residential care.
On the other hand, my aunt had it and was quite happy, ate well, knew who we were, didn’t know where she was (nursing home) thought it was a hotel and ultimately died in her sleep.

If I lose my mind, if I get cancer that cannot be treated, if I cannot function because I’m bed bound with a syringe driver pumping pain killers into me that render me unconscious, if I do not know who I am, who my loved ones are, if I can’t do the things I enjoy, then I would want to be put to sleep, we do it for our pets.

I would quite happily sign a legal document right now that allowed me to drink something to end that or be given something by a doctor to end that humiliating and pointless (in my opinion) existence and I would be more than willing to pay for it. I don’t agree that the way to obtain this means travelling to Switzerland and making the decision before I am ready.

HomeSliceKnowsBest · 23/10/2021 06:34

AI. Robotic carers or mandatory Dignitas for those who cannot pay for/have family to care for them.

Waxonwaxoff0 · 23/10/2021 06:37

Another vote for assisted dying here.

Hopefully I won't need care. My grandfather is nearly 80 years old and so far needs no help at all with anything, he lives alone, still drives, does his own shopping, cleans his house, goes out to play bowls and goes on UK holidays. Really hope that will be me.

bobsholi · 23/10/2021 06:37

I hope assisted dying will become more normal. People are kept alive for far too long these days and usually it's utterly miserable for them. I worked in care for years and gave it my all but our residents were on the whole completely fed up with life. I do not want my children to care for me, nor do I want to go into a home. I want to choose my own way out.

FreeBritnee · 23/10/2021 06:38

Thing is I was done twenty years ago. I honestly have zero desire to live about fifty years. The thought horrifies me. I would be more than delighted to get to mid 60s and be done. I honestly think we should get the choice.

rushedruined · 23/10/2021 06:38

I don't have children (years of ttc), and couldn't kill myself (hangups from religious youth). I just live in denial really and do as much exercise and healthy eating as I can.

FreeBritnee · 23/10/2021 06:38
  • live another fifty years
Ionsion · 23/10/2021 06:46

@notanothertakeaway

All these rather flippant comments about assisted dying terrify me

Sadly, I think it will come in, due to lack of finances

And initially it will be for extreme / ckearcut cases

And then it will be watered down

And you may not feel so relaxed then

We should be supporting this elderly/ infirm, not killing them off

Exactly. It’s a slippery slope. I’m convinced it will be brought in and that it will be abused by the authorities, that the conditions for using it will be watered down (e.g people who are depressed and suicidal helped to die instead of being given the support they need due to funding shortages in mental health. I think there will be occasions where elderly relatives will be coerced into it by younger family members who want to get their hands on their inheritance sooner or who don’t want the burden of looking after their elderly relative. I think there will be instances where the old and infirm are coerced / guilt tripped into it.

I think old people in our country aren’t valued and respected in the same way that they are in other countries. We are very ageist in the UK. It’s all about the young and once you reach a certain age you become invisible and don’t matter anymore...

Ionsion · 23/10/2021 07:03

I think the way things are going some people in our country will find they don’t have enough money to carry on. It’s only a matter of time before the basic state pension gets pulled.

iloveeverykindofcat · 23/10/2021 07:07

I'm only in my thirties but I have a lot of experience with death - family members, and I've had a near-death experience (coma). I'm very matter of fact about it - my advance directives are in order regarding what treatment I would (not) want at what stages if I lost capacity to direct it, and if I was in a position that I could judge myself getting to the point of incapacity, I know how to end my life comfortably. Honestly none of this seems particularly tragic to me - its natural. What we do to extend life at the point of extremity isn't natural - sometimes its quite awful.

The question is, as someone says above, what about the care we need whilst we could still have decent quality of life, such as cooking meals.

DinosApple · 23/10/2021 07:08

I think the prospect of assisted dying coupled with extortionate house prices and parental guilt is a worrying combination.

It's one thing to be absolutely done with living, with no quality of life and ready for death, it's a completely different thing to be worrying about care home costs and how much money your children will inherit.

It is not easy to look after elderly relations, but I would give it a go, and would prefer my children to do so too. I've had family examples so am not totally naïve, my parents and grandparents both cared for their parents, even if eventually one went into a home.

I'm aiming to model my 91yo grandma when I get to that stage. She lives independently, has a gardener, a cleaner and a stair lift, an active social life, and children (and grandchildren) who visit and call regularly.

TambourineofRighteousness · 23/10/2021 07:10

@Waxonwaxoff0

Another vote for assisted dying here.

Hopefully I won't need care. My grandfather is nearly 80 years old and so far needs no help at all with anything, he lives alone, still drives, does his own shopping, cleans his house, goes out to play bowls and goes on UK holidays. Really hope that will be me.

It's mid-late 80s where it can start to go wrong. All the elderly people in my family were absolutley fine and fully independent, then from around 85 the dementia and illness started to kick in. Nearly broke up two marriages trying to care for four of them at once.
HazelandChacha · 23/10/2021 07:11

@Youcancallmeval

If I get to a point I need care, I will be booking a one way ticket to Switzerland.
DF always said he would do away with himself if he got like his DM who suffered horribly with dementia.

DF now can’t remember I’ve visited 10 mins after I’ve left, of course he doesn’t know that he’s getting like his DM because he can’t remember!

JustJustWhy · 23/10/2021 07:17

I've been around care homes a lot with my Mum's job and elderly grandparents. I am hoping euthanasia will have come into force by the time I get there. I don't want to be a burden, I don't want to live in a care home and I would have absolutely no issue with slipping away quietly while I'm still well but having done everything I've wanted to.

BewaretheIckabog · 23/10/2021 07:19

With sudden onset dementia, which can happen after en illness, you don’t have capacity to consider assisted dying.

We can’t look after my mother - at home she was agitated and dangerous, wandering in the night, trying to cut electric cables with scissors, or trying to use a boiling kettle. She is much better and more comfortable in residential care.

However at £1800 per week the money may run out. I won’t have the same assets as her in old age so not sure what will happen.

Maverickess · 23/10/2021 07:34

@Avarua

The market has done it's job: people won't work in a sector that pays fuck all. That sector is profitable for most elderly who stay - even with higher wages - and the unprofitable ones can be subsidised. If it wasn't profitable, why are retirement villages popping up everywhere? They're creaming profits while paying their staff fuck all. Why carers don't walk out en masse, I don't know. It's almost like they like being exploited.
The problem there is that many people are pushed into care work because it's a job that currently you need a DBS and a covid vaccination to do and nothing else, no one's particularly bothered about the suitability of people doing the work and with no entry requirements, unemployed are pushed into doing this or get sanctioned, and no one's really bothered if they want to, if they are any good at it, as long as they've got a job and there's another name on the rota. It's seen as a job you do because you can't do anything else, so until the training and entry requirements increase, there's going to always be a supply of people - suitable or not - to work in care. That's currently vastly depleted because of Brexit and the shortages in other occupations that have similar entry requirements like hospitality or retail, and people are going without care, care staff are run ragged and standards aren't met, and short of talking about it now and again, nothing is being done. This was always going to happen at some point, no one wanted to, or apparently still does, address it. The other group are the ones who actually run the care sector, and it's 'funded' by goodwill, unpaid overtime and society demands about duty of care, and self expectations about not turning down the 14 hour shift on your one day off because the people you care for will go without care, providers know and use this daily to fill their rota to the bare minimum, while still getting paid the same. Short staffed shifts impact on the people getting the care and the workers - but no one gets a refund or a pay bonus for putting up with it, the provider keeps the cash that should be being spent on staff to provide proper care. While the government and CQC (a useless organisation if ever I saw one!) Allow this to happen, and care workers bare the brunt of the blame when things go wrong, nothing is going to change. Care workers and the people in care need to start being listened to about the issues, rather than a token chat or form at inspection time, inspection needs to be far more robust and the providers need to be held strongly to account and not allowed to shunt the blame on to the workers, say lessons have been learned, and then carry on as before. Care business is just that, a business, and it's got profit at the heart of it, like any business. If we want more, and better carers then government needs to step in and make that happen, because providers are not going to do it of their own accord. You can have the highest standards in the world set for delivering care, they're not going to be achieved if there's no one to deliver the care.

As for assisted dying, in principle yes a good idea as many people, me included, don't want to live the way some people with dementia or other illnesses dictate, but, we need a massive culture shift, and even then, we need to realise that it's not a quick fix.
For example, by the time someone reaches the point with dementia that they no longer have a quality of life, they're very likely to be unable to consent - even with an advanced directive, who makes that final decision that today is the day? The family? The doctor? The care staff? I don't want that responsibility as a relative or a care worker.

The shortfall is starting to push wages and conditions up for care workers, but imo, in the wrong ways. Joining bonuses, free uniforms etc are being offered as an incentive, those things don't do anything to address the real issues of poor training, poor staffing levels and overall poor pay, and are easily withdrawn as soon as things swing back the other way.

The whole industry needs to change, but, that's going to cost money, money people don't want to part with in the form of inheritance or tax. I don't particularly want to pay more NI - because it's not going to ensure we get enough staff to provide care properly, proper training or registration of care workers, or better wages and conditions. It's either going to subsidise the increased need for the care already being delivered, or end up as profit for providers.

Ultimately, I'm a human being too, and there's only so much of this I can take before I get to burn out and leave - leaving another gap in the market where there was experience and compassion for those I care for. That's what we're seeing happening, because right now, we have a choice. Those in our care don't.

AngelicInnocent · 23/10/2021 07:34

Recently discussed this with my aging DM who tells me my duties to care for her stop when she needs more than her shopping done and a cleaner/gardener organising.

She watched her DM come to hate her DM as a result of years of caring for her and always swore never to do that to her DC.

HandlebarLadyTash · 23/10/2021 07:35

@CurlyhairedAssassin I've been saying the same for years.
Forcing retirement later is a false economy the people who do the caring cant do it if they are signing on

Dojacatpaws · 23/10/2021 07:35

Some people live a healthy and independent old age

GoodnightGrandma · 23/10/2021 07:37

I also believe that you should be able to choose to end your life, and be able to do it in a safe and dignified way.
You do not get a say in whether you want to be born, so you should get a say in whether you live.

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