Meet the Other Phone. A phone that grows with your child.

Meet the Other Phone.
A phone that grows with your child.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Another selfish, selfish man furious that no one was paying attention to him

220 replies

Notusuallyshocked · 22/10/2021 01:01

This just makes me so angry...

www.suffolknews.co.uk/ipswich/news/man-who-shot-wife-and-left-her-to-die-as-he-ate-breakfast-is-9222020/

He shot his wife and left their children to find her body because she 'wasn't paying enough attention to him or his needs'.

As the judge said, 'she was carrying the entire burden of running that house whilst you took to bed.'

An 8 year minimum sentence doesn't seem long enough. Another example of undervaluing women's lives.

OP posts:
MilduraS · 22/10/2021 22:31

The thing I struggle with is if they find him mentally stable in 8 years time, what will happen? Will he be allowed to go about rebuilding his life like any other person? Or will he be continuously and carefully monitored to ensure he takes his medication and never becomes a danger again? If his mental health has deteriorated to a such a state that he lacks the ability to control his actions, it could happen again in 20 years or 30 years or 40 years.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2021 22:57

Not an expert but bit I do know-

If vv mentally ill / serious personality disorder essentially very unlikely to change etc then there are secure MH hosps eg Broadmoor. That's where your Ian Huntleys etc go.

I think (?) that if in there then you are not released until totally better no risk etc. It's not a sentence it's not X years because who can say how long. Of course this means there are people in till they die.

Not sure what happens those too ill for prison, not as bad as that though.

I do know loads of male and female inmates have MH issues of various severity and there's not much treatment which is obv terrible.

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2021 23:03

Looking at article again I don't think it makes sense. I am probably missing something.

'A registered gun dealer who shot his wife and left her to die while he ate breakfast has been given a life sentence and remanded to a psychiatric hospital.'

Life is a range, it was 16 years so why say life that's a bit strange.

Remanded to hosp? That means he surely is incredibly ill.

The judges comments are damning though, and not as if didn't know what he was doing.

This is v strange. I suspect the article is a bit slap dash!

NiceGerbil · 22/10/2021 23:24

Ah- BBC

'The judge told Hartshorne-Jones, who at an earlier hearing admitted manslaughter by diminished responsibility: "It's not possible to reliably estimate when you will cease to be a danger."

Hartshorne-Jones was sentenced to a hybrid order, under the Mental Health Act, of life with a minimum term of eight years.

He was detained in a mental health hospital but may be transferred to prison to serve the rest of his sentence if he becomes well enough.'

That makes more sense.

MareofBeasttown · 23/10/2021 02:05

@Notusuallyshocked

The "fuck men" argument is bullshit. Our society is run by men for men. Take health services, for example. Women's health issues are routinely deprioritised and women's pain is not taken seriously. Also, many male suicides can be linked to our toxic masculine culture. Toxic masculinity is not women's problem to solve.
Could not agree.more. The commrnts on this thread about the very rare cases when women murder are pure distraction. I stand by my comment on MRAs.
Lollipop444 · 23/10/2021 06:06

@mountbattenbergcake

Funny how so few women get depression and kill, isn't it?

It's a fucking man's world.

Yes exactly...

If it was purely down to mental health and not a combination of the other factors mentioned already then you would surely expect the numbers of men being killed by women to be similar?

Lollipop444 · 23/10/2021 06:22

@x2boys

There is an awful lot of ignorance on this thread about mental illness, People can absolutely be violent purely due to their illness i was a mental health nurse for years working in acute mental health, when someone is in the grip of psychosis they are literally out of their mind they are not in reality, and when frightened some people will be violent, or they may have delusional ideas about their loved ones wanting harm them Its not quite as simple as saying, well he didn't take his medication so it's his fault, many people lack insight into their mental illness and don't beleive they are ill, or when they are well stop taking their medication because they don't think they need, so many people have relapses because medication refusal
If this is the case, and I’m not saying it isn’t as I don’t work in this field, why on earth was ‘care’ in the community brought in and people expected to manage their medication independently?

Surely residential care would be more appropriate if the risk of violence is this high?

Lostmarbles2021 · 23/10/2021 07:27

What a tragic tragic situation. Those poor children. I really hope they have good extended family who can look after them. It’s heart breaking.

I agree with most of what has been said and don’t think that these are either/or arguments. I think they are both/and.

I felt initial anger towards him and thought the sentence too lenient. But also can see that psychosis means that you are not in touch with reality. The PP who’s heartfelt recollections of her own psychosis that caused her to have instructions to kill her own child was a brave and useful reminder that none of us are immune from struggling in this way.

This man sounds like he had totally lost it. It sounds like it all happened during the main bit of the pandemic when most services were struggling to work out how to operate safely. He didn’t get the oversight he needed. He was a danger but that wasn’t spotted. May be he was a ‘nasty piece of work’ too. Either way he needs assessing, monitoring and treating in terms of future risk.

I agree with PPs who have said that a psychiatric hospital prison/secure unit is no ordinary hospital. They are truly grim and frightening places - even as a staff member!

I also agree that we live in a culture where toxic masculinity has run rampant and needs addressing. This may well be an added layer to this case. It doesn’t negate his psychosis, however. It’s likely to be both/and IMO.

So there are layers to what may have led to this tragedy:

Individual - who knows what his starting personality was like and why (people aren’t born evil). He may have been an anxious frightened man who developed psychosis and snapped. He may have always been abusive, developed psychosis and snapped. Or many other trajectories. There is just no way for us to know. What we do know is that a qualified professional has deemed to have had diminished responsibility.

Service level - services weren’t operating normally. Who knows what was tried but it didn’t work. It’s likely everyone was doing their best but it wasn’t good enough on this occasion. It leaves questions about information flow for gun licensing.

Cultural/societal - toxic masculinity. Gun licensing. Cultural views on domestic violence (it only became illegal for a man to hit his wife in the 1970s). Still violence against women is ignored.

Global - pandemic that left most people feeling more vulnerable. May be triggered a worsening mental health issue for him. It isolated us all which is a risk factor for mental health issues. Impacted on service delivery.

I think it also raises interesting and difficult questions about the purpose of prison sentences. Are they punishment/revenge/retribution or are they for rehabilitation! I think in the UK we like to think that it’s the latter but actually we are crap at rehabilitation.

A PP said focusing on the early years is crucial and the evidence overwhelmingly supports that. If we support families in their first three years [in the right ways] that’s what will help us to raise emotionally healthy and empathic humans that are more regulated less likely to harm others.

But, there isn’t a ‘one size fits all’ solution to these tragedies. It’s complex and emotive.

But generally, this has just left me feeling so sad for those children. What they may have been experiencing before, what they went through then and the difficult emotional journey they have ahead. I hope they get the support they need.

2Two · 23/10/2021 09:07

If vv mentally ill / serious personality disorder essentially very unlikely to change etc then there are secure MH hosps eg Broadmoor. That's where your Ian Huntleys etc go.

Ian Huntley has always been in prison. Do you mean Brady?

KayKayWat · 23/10/2021 09:10

Take health services, for example. Women's health issues are routinely deprioritised and women's pain is not taken seriously

Doesn't breast cancer get like 75% more funding than prostrate cancer?

2Two · 23/10/2021 09:15

@soberisthenewpissed

How did he get a gun licence if his mental health was that poor?
Because he was able to hide it for a time, because someone fucked up, because his mental health deteriorated subsequently. For sure the person granting the gun licence didn't do the in-depth psychiatric examinations that the prosecution and defence psychiatrists did in this case.
Notusuallyshocked · 23/10/2021 09:17

The gender bias in medicine and medical research is well-known and well-documented.

OP posts:
Sparklfairy · 23/10/2021 09:19

@KayKayWat both sexes can and do get breast cancer. There's evidence breast cancer in men is on the rise due to the obesity crisis as they have more "breast" tissue than 50 years ago.

x2boys · 23/10/2021 10:18

@NiceGerbil

- Why this sidetrack into women who murder? This thread is about that this case, yet another woman killed by a man she knew/ was in a relationship with etc. It's about MVAWG. There is a much higher prevalence and there are certain dynamics which are different. Women who murder, which happens because you know we are human and are capable of doing all sorts of stuff, is a different topic.
  • And what is this really odd. Let out in 2 days if better. Sad to keep inside if better. And an assertion that posters want those in prison to suffer badly. Which is pretty random.
Would be happy to have another thread about prison conditions. Prob one for chat? If anyone wants to start a thread esp I think Kay has a lot of thoughts. Drop the link on here. Prison and YOI situation has been something I've been concerned with for years.
Because in this case it was about a psychotic man who killed whilst he was mentally ill ,not just someone who killed in cold blood.
Hoardasurass · 23/10/2021 11:20

@Lollipop444 the simple answer is cost. This all started in the 90s under "new labour " they were warned that these sorts of "incidents " would happen much more frequently than they did (they were much rarer than they are now) but we were told that to many people were in institutions who didn't need to be (many institutions were just warehouses for people with ASD and other disabilities) and with all the extra money MH services would have by not "wasting money " on "unessecary hospitalisation " would be more than enough to cover a "world class " care in the community programme. Now IF the money saved by closing all these MH hospitals had been ring-fenced and only spent on MH staff/treatment maybe they might have been correct instead all of the "savings " went straight back into the general NHS pot and it started the wholesale gutting of MH services that has continued year on year under every single government since which has led us to the point we are now at where CAMHS and adults MH are so overstretched and underfunded that even severely depressed and suicidal children/adults can wait 2+ years just to speak to a CPN and also why as soon as a child says that they are trans CAMHS wash there hands (never mind underlying/co-morbidities) and refer straight to gids/travistock/sandyford.

x2boys · 23/10/2021 11:28

[quote Hoardasurass]@Lollipop444 the simple answer is cost. This all started in the 90s under "new labour " they were warned that these sorts of "incidents " would happen much more frequently than they did (they were much rarer than they are now) but we were told that to many people were in institutions who didn't need to be (many institutions were just warehouses for people with ASD and other disabilities) and with all the extra money MH services would have by not "wasting money " on "unessecary hospitalisation " would be more than enough to cover a "world class " care in the community programme. Now IF the money saved by closing all these MH hospitals had been ring-fenced and only spent on MH staff/treatment maybe they might have been correct instead all of the "savings " went straight back into the general NHS pot and it started the wholesale gutting of MH services that has continued year on year under every single government since which has led us to the point we are now at where CAMHS and adults MH are so overstretched and underfunded that even severely depressed and suicidal children/adults can wait 2+ years just to speak to a CPN and also why as soon as a child says that they are trans CAMHS wash there hands (never mind underlying/co-morbidities) and refer straight to gids/travistock/sandyford.[/quote]
This is very true
When are first qualified in the mid 90,s they were at the end of the process of closing down all the long stay wards,
Even in the acute wards some patients were hospital detained under the mental health act for far longer than they needed to be ,so something had to change,but as you say the continuos stripping of services has led us to the point we are at now ,where even the most mentally ill people cannot access adequate care .

Zilla1 · 23/10/2021 12:45

The relative funding for sex-linked cancers would need to look at both funding and incidence and 'burden' but the last objective research I saw said that there is a considerable mismatch between funding and 'burden' with both breast cancer and prostate cancer and one non-directly sex-linked cancer (leukaemia) considerably 'over'-funded and several other cancers 'underfunded', both ones that affect both sexes and one that is sex-linked - bladder, oesophageal, liver, oral, pancreatic, stomach, and uterine.

simiisme · 23/10/2021 18:00

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Imagine the carnage if 50 year old women started shooting people who weren't paying attention to them.
Absolutely.
Musicaltheatremum · 23/10/2021 18:10

@nettie434

KayKatWat By 'not let down by the system', I meant he was being offered treatment for his mental health. The gun licence is a separate issue. MilduraS explained that it is up to the licence holder to report changes in their mental health after the licence has been approved. The gov.uk website says licences usually last 5 years - plenty of time for a person's mental health to change. I doubt the mental health team even knew he had a gun licence.

I wondered whether 'holds a gun licence' is recorded on a person's GP record and, if not, should it be so that the system can flag up if the person is receiving psychotropic medication or experiencing mental health problems?

Yes they are coded. But the codes get lost so we have the fact they have a license in a yellow alert box that pops up when you open the record. We reported someone who we were worried about who had a gun license. Police visited and removed. Person reported my colleague to the General Medical council for breach of confidentiality. The GMC were more on the patients side than my colleagues.!!!!
Suzanne999 · 23/10/2021 18:23

If his mental health was that bad how the hell was he allowed to have a gun licence and keep a weapon/ weapons in a house with children present?
Will add my voice to appeal for a longer sentence. Sentencing in this country is a joke.

greendiva · 23/10/2021 18:30

@PastMyBestBeforeDate yep, very true, 90% of men I would imagine

ThistleTits · 23/10/2021 19:22

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Imagine the carnage if 50 year old women started shooting people who weren't paying attention to them.
This ^
Mollymoostoo · 23/10/2021 20:21

@NiceGerbil

Can you provide different info to show who said what about his MH please?

Loads of people have MH issues from mild to severe.

They don't go around killing people.

To have it as defence/ mitigation it needs to be full on psychosis as in no idea what doing. Hallucinating. Really far gone.

Got a link?

Exactly. This man was a narc, abusive and selfish. Women yet again are not important.
x2boys · 23/10/2021 20:32

This man was also psychotic when he commited the killing a fact which most people are missing ,if it was purely a man killing his wife in cold blood ,then yes posters would have a point ,but many people with serious mental illness,s are violent and some both men and women do kill due their psychosis ,people need to be getting angry about the many ,many stripping of mental health services for many years

Owl55 · 23/10/2021 21:11

More and more stories of domestic violence against women and the sentences are often ridiculous and suspended, I think the prisons are full and they just get away with it just a restraining order , a few years later they repeat the violence against a different woman and then it’s taken seriously!