Page 2 | Another selfish, selfish man furious that no one was paying attention to him

Notusuallyshocked · 2021-10-22T00:01:13+00:00

This just makes me so angry... [[www.suffolknews.co.uk/ipswich/news/man-who-shot-wife-and-left-her-to-die-as-he-ate-breakfast-is-9222020/]] He shot his wife and left their children to find her body because she 'wasn't paying enough attention to him or his needs'. As the judge said, 'she was carrying the entire burden of running that house whilst you took to bed.' An 8 year minimum sentence doesn't seem long enough. Another example of undervaluing women's lives.

50ShadesOfCatholic · 22/10/2021 08:56

@Naunet
OK so you're posting an opinion based on what you think rather than what we know.

I used to be a prisons reporter. There is a popular perception that time inside should be long and hard. But what we know is that this is prohibitively expensive, and that banging up the most disturbed and aggressive people together creates more mayhem.

Prisons are outdated. We need to invest in the early years, support young families, especially mothers, to raise healthy and functional citizens.

2Two · 22/10/2021 08:58

Objectively, 16 years for killing someone like this, is not lengthy

Only if you leave the accepted mental health issues out of the objective assessment.

JustHereWithMyPopcorn · 22/10/2021 09:22

8 years is an insult, 16 years are in an insult. His actions were deliberate and it's murder whether they accepted a plea for manslaughter or not.

KayKayWat · 22/10/2021 09:32

@nettie434

The judge's comments as reported here are telling. What I also took from the article is that the husband had contacts with mental health professionals in 26 days out of the 42 days preceding him shooting his wife but he refused to take the anti anxiety medication he had been prescribed. I wonder the the procedures are for informing the authorities if you have a mental health problem and hold a gun licence? This is not an example of someone whose mental health worsened but who slipped through the system.

I feel very sorry for the poor children. They have lost their mother and are now effectively parentless.

It sounds like he was let down by the system if he'd had this much contact and was still allowed to continue as usual with a gun in his possession. And of course his wife paid the price in the end too.

Eight years doesn't sound much but our penal system is based on rehabilitation not revenge. I'd imagine that a few months in prison would have most people regretting their actions, yet alone eight years. If we want a 'hard justice' approach then we need to change out system to one of punishment/revenge rather than rehabilitation, but arguably this is worse for society as many criminals do genuinely become contributing members of society later in life (I've worked with a few, although no murderers - serious assault and repeated high level theft namely).

2Two · 22/10/2021 09:39

@JustHereWithMyPopcorn

8 years is an insult, 16 years are in an insult. His actions were deliberate and it's murder whether they accepted a plea for manslaughter or not.

The mere fact that someone's actions are deliberate does not preclude them from being instigated by mental illness, nor does it mean that the person questioned must be treated as a murderer. If, for instance, you have a delusion that someone is about to kill you so that you kill them, your actions will be deliberate. Bear in mind that the prosecution would have taken a lot of convincing to accept a plea of manslaughter, and would have obtained their own evidence from psychiatrists whose starting point would have been an assumption of sanity.

2Two · 22/10/2021 09:41

I'd imagine that a few months in prison would have most people regretting their actions, yet alone eight years

That's absolutely right. Husband of a friend of mine was imprisoned for dangerous driving. He fully accepted that it was the right sentence and bitterly regretted what he did from the moment it happened. He found being in prison utter hell on earth.

AICM · 22/10/2021 09:44

I'm confused about the sentence.

Is the minimum 8 years of 16?

8 is an insult. 16 seems in line with what I would expect - not enough in my opinion but in line with other cases.

BudgeSquare · 22/10/2021 09:44

@PastMyBestBeforeDate

Imagine the carnage if 50 year old women started shooting people who weren't paying attention to them.

I love this.. laughter in the dark

KayKayWat · 22/10/2021 09:47

@2Two

I'd imagine that a few months in prison would have most people regretting their actions, yet alone eight years

That's absolutely right. Husband of a friend of mine was imprisoned for dangerous driving. He fully accepted that it was the right sentence and bitterly regretted what he did from the moment it happened. He found being in prison utter hell on earth.

This is the tough bit. Because in theory, you could release somebody after three days if it was genuinely proven that they were rehabilitated (obv an unrealistic example). But we still think in terms of penance as a society.

AICM · 22/10/2021 09:50

I do believe that rehabilitation is an important part of the justice system but so is punishment.

If somebody committed a violent crime but was remorseful and rehabilitation very quickly, I still feel they should serve a long sentence to endurevthe victim has justice.

nettie434 · 22/10/2021 09:51

KayKatWat By 'not let down by the system', I meant he was being offered treatment for his mental health. The gun licence is a separate issue. MilduraS explained that it is up to the licence holder to report changes in their mental health after the licence has been approved. The gov.uk website says licences usually last 5 years - plenty of time for a person's mental health to change. I doubt the mental health team even knew he had a gun licence.

I wondered whether 'holds a gun licence' is recorded on a person's GP record and, if not, should it be so that the system can flag up if the person is receiving psychotropic medication or experiencing mental health problems?

Magicpaintbrush · 22/10/2021 09:58

Why is it that so many (not all but many) men think the universe revolves around them to the point where in their head they have dehumanised the woman they are married to or in a relationship with enough that they are able to cause them bodily harm or death. I just will never understand that total lack of empathy for another human being - lack of empathy both for what that other person actually goes through in their daily life and total lack of value for their right to life and safety. It's like there is something missing inside their brain - whatever it is that the rest of us have, compassion, restraint etc it's just totally absent. That poor woman, so young and gone forever. The injustice of it is immense.

KayKayWat · 22/10/2021 10:01

@nettie434

KayKatWat By 'not let down by the system', I meant he was being offered treatment for his mental health. The gun licence is a separate issue. MilduraS explained that it is up to the licence holder to report changes in their mental health after the licence has been approved. The gov.uk website says licences usually last 5 years - plenty of time for a person's mental health to change. I doubt the mental health team even knew he had a gun licence.

I wondered whether 'holds a gun licence' is recorded on a person's GP record and, if not, should it be so that the system can flag up if the person is receiving psychotropic medication or experiencing mental health problems?

I think people often have a kneejerk reaction to male violence against women, which is understandable. But at the end of the day the professionals have concluded that he is not of sound mind.

Lougle · 22/10/2021 10:03

@AICM

I'm confused about the sentence.

Is the minimum 8 years of 16?

8 is an insult. 16 seems in line with what I would expect - not enough in my opinion but in line with other cases.

The sentence is 16 years. He has to serve 8 years before they'll consider to release him on license, with conditions, supervised by the probation service, for the remaining 8 years.

KayKayWat · 22/10/2021 10:05

So, theoretically, if they find a medication next week which totally stabilises him, then he still has to spend another eight years incarcerated?

It's an odd blurring line between illness and criminality.

Sparklfairy · 22/10/2021 10:06

I really don't think he should have got such a light sentence on the grounds of "diminished responsibility" due to his MH when he was refusing to take his medication.

At what point does personal responsibility come into it? If he'd taken his medication this might not have happened. He chose not to.

chaosmaker · 22/10/2021 10:18

@DorsVenabili

I'm not sure its as clear cut as selfish man kills wife- he clearly has/had a psychiatric issue - and thats not just what the defence said I do think one issue is why should someone with mental health issues be able to get a gun licence-and whilst i can see that he lied surely you shouldn't be able to lie- there should be some sort of central check/need to get a medical sign off etc

Nobody should be able to get a gun licence unless they can prove they really need one. Even in the police force aren't there only certain officers that carry a gun?

Zilla1 · 22/10/2021 10:18

From my limited understanding, I think the immediate destination of the guilty is a strong tell to the substance of the issue. Happy to be corrected with evidence.

Lougle · 22/10/2021 10:21

You don't know what was driving him to refuse to take his medicine. If it was a worsening of his mental health state then it's likely that he wasn't making a rational choice. It's a bit like when someone with bipolar disorder has a manic episode - they feel amazing, they can do anything, why would they listen to people who are telling them they're ill?

If it was as simple as 'chose' he wouldn't have been given diminished responsibility and diminished responsibility isn't 'no responsibility' which is why he's got a long sentence of 16 years.

Original poster

Notusuallyshocked · 22/10/2021 10:22

It's hard not to see this as a combination of selfishness and self-obsession, carried to extremes due to mental health issues and access to guns.

We hear about this sort of behaviour on MN daily - men convinced that women owe them something, that women aren't separate human beings but service robots at men's disposal.

Here the two additional factors were the mental health issues and access to guns.

But the vile misogyny was probably there to start with. Had those two additional issues not been present, this man would probably still have been selfish, self-pitying and abusive to his wife. I find it hard to believe he went from being a loving, appreciative, supportive husband and father to shooting her for not taking him seriously purely due to mental health issues. The underlying contempt for her as a human being was probably there at the start.

Imagine the carnage if 50 year old women started shooting people who weren't paying attention to them.

Indeed. But this would require women to be conditioned to believe (i) that other people owe them attention and (ii) that violence, as opposed to walking away, is an acceptable response if they aren't paid the attention they believe they are owed. So very unlikely.

OP posts:

Lougle · 22/10/2021 10:23

It's quite rare for someone with mental health issues to be sentenced to psychiatric hospital. If his issues would just be fixed by medication, he would be sentenced to prison with a medical overview.

Original poster

Notusuallyshocked · 22/10/2021 10:26

I think people often have a kneejerk reaction to male violence against women, which is understandable. But at the end of the day the professionals have concluded that he is not of sound mind.

It's hard not to conclude that even in the absence of mental health issues he fundamentally viewed his wife as 'lesser' to him and there to serve and validate him, even if it was his mental state which meant he finally lost it and killed her. So yes, her killing does seem tied up with male entitlement and general male violence towards women.

OP posts:

Pazuzu · 22/10/2021 10:37

From what I know, the parole situation isn't the same for prisoners in a psych unit as it is in a normal prison and to be sent to a psych unit, you've got to be in a pretty bad way.

As to the length of the sentence, you've got to factor in the reduction for guilty plea. From a very quick look at the guidelines, he's been handed a pretty strong sentence. It just looks lesser because of the reduction. If they didn't have the reduction for guilty pleas, the system would clog up very quickly as so many would think why not go to trial.

KayKayWat · 22/10/2021 10:39

It's hard not to conclude that even in the absence of mental health issues he fundamentally viewed his wife as 'lesser' to him and there to serve and validate him, even if it was his mental state which meant he finally lost it and killed her. So yes, her killing does seem tied up with male entitlement and general male violence towards women.

Yes, I'm sure it's hard not to conclude that. With you of course having interviewed the perpetrator at length, reviewed his medical records, and used your degree in criminal psychology.

Think I'll listen to the experts, thanks.

Tubs11 · 22/10/2021 10:39

This is a shocking statistic....

He also highlighted that since Mrs Hartshorne-Jones’ death 120 women had been killed, with seven women a month killed by current or former partners.