Another selfish, selfish man furious that no one was paying attention to him

[Notusuallyshocked]

This just makes me so angry...

www.suffolknews.co.uk/ipswich/news/man-who-shot-wife-and-left-her-to-die-as-he-ate-breakfast-is-9222020/

He shot his wife and left their children to find her body because she 'wasn't paying enough attention to him or his needs'.

As the judge said, 'she was carrying the entire burden of running that house whilst you took to bed.'

An 8 year minimum sentence doesn't seem long enough. Another example of undervaluing women's lives.

Years ago, a man near me stopped taking his meds and killed his wife. He thought he was the Terminator and she was Sarah Connor. We have no idea what really went through his head and are just throwing around stereotypes.

He's also going to a secure psychiatric prison rather than a normal jail which is no cakewalk for anyone in fact they are pretty helish (I know someone who worked in 1) and most prisoners would prefer to be transferred to a normal prison than be there also unlike a normal sentence he won't automatically be up for parole after 8 years it will depend on his psychiatric health if they think that he is still mentally ill and/or believe that he won't properly engage with MH professionals he won't even be allowed to apply and even after his whole sentence they can still keep him if they consider him to still be a danger to himself or the public.

It's not a prison, it's a hospital, run by the NHS rather than the Prison Service.

I agree with the other points though.

@KayKayWat

It's hard not to conclude that even in the absence of mental health issues he fundamentally viewed his wife as 'lesser' to him and there to serve and validate him, even if it was his mental state which meant he finally lost it and killed her. So yes, her killing does seem tied up with male entitlement and general male violence towards women.

Yes, I'm sure it's hard not to conclude that. With you of course having interviewed the perpetrator at length, reviewed his medical records, and used your degree in criminal psychology.

Think I'll listen to the experts, thanks.

Whilst none of us has (I assume) conducted a full examination of the evidence here, it seems a no-brainer to say that his mental alone could not have caused this. There are many thousands of seriously mentally unwell people who do not kill their families. I

It's at least reasonable to speculate that the main causes of what happened here are:

-this man's parlous mental health
-make toxicity in general
-him being a fucking scumbag in particular, aside from his illness.

It's a shit situation but there's plenty that can be done to make the world better here. Shutting down discussion by saying 'you don't get to talk about this without being a psychologist and having interviewed him' really, really doesn't fucking help.

Looking at the facts, there is a woman desperately trying to cope in lockdown (job, house, probably homeschooling too) and a man displaying a breathtaking level of self-obsession. He may have been mentally ill but he also seems to have been pissed off that, despite this, it wasn't all about him. So I think we can justifiably question whether what happened was purely due to his mental health issues. They may only have been the trigger in what was already an incredibly toxic and abusive situation.

Funny how so few women get depression and kill, isn't it?

It's a fucking man's world.

Lougle

Thanks.

I feel the sentence is unduly lenient.

It’s so true

"Looking at the facts"

Looking at the 'facts' as reported by the media? Or were you in the court, reading all the documents and listening to all the legal arguments?

The prosecution accepted the lesser plea. That tells us that they either agreed, or weren't convinced they'd get murder to stick.

@Notusuallyshocked

It's hard not to see this as a combination of selfishness and self-obsession, carried to extremes due to mental health issues and access to guns.

We hear about this sort of behaviour on MN daily - men convinced that women owe them something, that women aren't separate human beings but service robots at men's disposal.

Here the two additional factors were the mental health issues and access to guns.

But the vile misogyny was probably there to start with. Had those two additional issues not been present, this man would probably still have been selfish, self-pitying and abusive to his wife. I find it hard to believe he went from being a loving, appreciative, supportive husband and father to shooting her for not taking him seriously purely due to mental health issues. The underlying contempt for her as a human being was probably there at the start.

Imagine the carnage if 50 year old women started shooting people who weren't paying attention to them.

Indeed. But this would require women to be conditioned to believe (i) that other people owe them attention and (ii) that violence, as opposed to walking away, is an acceptable response if they aren't paid the attention they believe they are owed. So very unlikely.

I used to know a woman who killed her husband during a psychotic episode. She was sent to a psychiatric hospital and was devastated when she found out what she had done. She got less than 8 years if I remember correctly but when she was released she had to live in a home with 24 hr staffing and restrictions. She thought she was protecting her children instead of which she killed their father in front of them.

It was an utterly tragic situation.

To have it as defence/ mitigation it needs to be full on psychosis as in no idea what doing. Hallucinating. Really far gone.

Yes I think a lot of people don't realize this. The terms are quite specific - its not enough to simply 'have a mental illness'. You have to not understand your actions at the time you carry them out. The reason Jeffery Dahmer - who was very mentally ill - recieved no mitigation for it is his actions showed both premediation and attempts to hide the evidence. He knew what he was doing at the time he was doing it. The only sucessful uses of the insanity defense I know of are in cases of untreated schizophrenia.

I agree that he had diminished responsiblity. But that's on him because he didn't take his medication. And for me a minimum of 8 years isn't long enough for that.

He was actually getting help, and didn't take his medication, the absolute fucker, where other people don't even get that opportunity.

So sure, quibble as much as you like about legal finer points, but he is another violent man who could have made different decisions and not killed a woman who was doing her best to support him. And their children.

also
I think people often have a kneejerk reaction to male violence against women, which is understandable. But at the end of the day the professionals have concluded that he is not of sound mind.

well sure - because there is SO MUCH male violence against women. It is all the bloody time. And actually, for once, someone has been tried for it. Whoopee.

I was reading this morning, however, how in 2017 a young woman was murdered by a stalker ex. She kept going to the police and they fined her for being a nuiscence.

If women were confident that violence against them by men would ALWAYS be prosecuted to the full extent, it would be a very small start.

@Notusuallyshocked

It's very lucky that he didn't harm the children.

I should imagine he's ruined their lives, it would be pretty hard to "get over" that. I think this what makes this case even more shocking is that he happily did this with his two little boys in the house.

I wonder how this case will be judged - I bet this woman gets a longer sentence:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-58986571

Interesting reporting though, I used the BBC coverage to try to get it as "reasonable" as possible, but even they've gone with woman kills man over bubble and squeak, rather than woman kills man who she says abused her for years ...

@iloveeverykindofcat

To have it as defence/ mitigation it needs to be full on psychosis as in no idea what doing. Hallucinating. Really far gone.

Yes I think a lot of people don't realize this. The terms are quite specific - its not enough to simply 'have a mental illness'. You have to not understand your actions at the time you carry them out. The reason Jeffery Dahmer - who was very mentally ill - recieved no mitigation for it is his actions showed both premediation and attempts to hide the evidence. He knew what he was doing at the time he was doing it. The only sucessful uses of the insanity defense I know of are in cases of untreated schizophrenia.

I don’t think you can compare this man and Jeffrey Dahmer. Completely different crimes, completely different legal systems.

I just can't rub my hands together in glee and relish the suffering of a mentally ill individual who's committed a horrific crime which he'll never come back from even if he fully recovers.

@StaplesCorner

I wonder how this case will be judged - I bet this woman gets a longer sentence:

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-somerset-58986571

Interesting reporting though, I used the BBC coverage to try to get it as "reasonable" as possible, but even they've gone with woman kills man over bubble and squeak, rather than woman kills man who she says abused her for years ...

Tbf, her 999 call was absolutely chilling. "He's bleeding to death with any luck," and musing out loud completely nonchalantly about going in and stabbing him again.

@StrangerYears

Judge Levett 'highlighted that since Mrs Hartshorne-Jones’ death 120 women had been killed, with seven women a month killed by current or former partners."

that is shocking. If it was a defined group , (eg teens, pub fights)
other than abusive partners, killing at this rate, there would be uproar. But for murdered women it is just a small article in a local paper.

Exactly this. Seven a month. Most of them barely get a headline. It's horrific. How do we change the narrative?

@KayKayWat

I just can't rub my hands together in glee and relish the suffering of a mentally ill individual who's committed a horrific crime which he'll never come back from even if he fully recovers.

Exactly.

@AICM

I do believe that rehabilitation is an important part of the justice system but so is punishment.

If somebody committed a violent crime but was remorseful and rehabilitation very quickly, I still feel they should serve a long sentence to endurevthe victim has justice.

I agree, but the punishment should be deprivation of liberty, nothing more. People who think the punishment should be further enhanced by horrible conditions and, in particular, turning a blind eye to other prisoners persecuting the person in question, really are badly misled.

@Brefugee

I agree that he had diminished responsiblity. But that's on him because he didn't take his medication. And for me a minimum of 8 years isn't long enough for that.

He was actually getting help, and didn't take his medication, the absolute fucker, where other people don't even get that opportunity.

So sure, quibble as much as you like about legal finer points, but he is another violent man who could have made different decisions and not killed a woman who was doing her best to support him. And their children.

I think if a mental illness is bad enough that it reduces murder to manslaughter it is probably bad enough that they aren't competent to do their own meds. If someone is that bad I think it should be supervised but whose going to pay for an army of carers/nurses to go round doing that?

@Zilla1

From my limited understanding, I think the immediate destination of the guilty is a strong tell to the substance of the issue. Happy to be corrected with evidence.

I think I need a translation.

Tbf, her 999 call was absolutely chilling. "He's bleeding to death with any luck," and musing out loud completely nonchalantly about going in and stabbing him again. Chilling is right.

Tbf, her 999 call was absolutely chilling. "He's bleeding to death with any luck," and musing out loud completely nonchalantly about going in and stabbing him again.

Unless she's a bona fide psychopath it sounds like diminished mental capacity to me?

Whilst none of us has (I assume) conducted a full examination of the evidence here, it seems a no-brainer to say that his mental alone could not have caused this. There are many thousands of seriously mentally unwell people who do not kill their families.

No, it's not a no-brainer, and that is something that could only be said by someone with no understanding of the many variations of mental illness. It would be ridiculous to say that, for instance, A who has severe depression does not kill, therefore B who has severe Bipolar, C who has acute schizophrenia, and D who has major delusions leading to a belief that he is under attack cannot suggest that their respective mental conditions led them to kill.

It is extraordinary how many people on here think that they know better than the prosecution and defence psychiatrists who have actually examined this man and had the benefit of seeing all his records.