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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Different to touch a mans pecs to a woman's breasts?

246 replies

imamearcat · 17/10/2021 23:56

Did anyone see the thing where a woman touched 'Gastons' chest at Disney land?

I got into a bit of an argument on Facebook about it with people saying it was the same as a man touching someone's breasts. I just don't think it's the same at all. Not saying it's right, but not the same.

AIBU?

OP posts:
BillMasen · 18/10/2021 11:34

Hate

Lulu2021 · 18/10/2021 11:34

Also, comparing grabbing pecs with breasts and ranking the incidents is very much the sort of Whataboutery that is frowned upon when there's a thread about a woman being attacked and some people join in with "men get attacked too".

Good point.

BodgertheJogger · 18/10/2021 11:35

@MargaretFaffter

I don’t think it’s the same but neither should happen without consent.
My thoughts.
FlatCheese · 18/10/2021 11:35

BillMasen and Findwen are right too, though. In a way she's exploiting her status as a woman to do what she's doing, knowing that men put in this situation can't exactly slap or push away a woman for groping them because they are bigger and stronger. There has to be an acceptable way for him to signal that touching is not ok.

Pythonista · 18/10/2021 11:36

@sleepyhoglet

Just watched the video. Didn't see a problem. They are pecs not breasts. His chest and his character in the film is very flirtatious etc so she was having a pose with the character. She touched him for a matter of milli seconds and wasn't being sexual about it. I wonder was it more about social distancing than sexual touching. I felt sorry for her- it was made more awkward than it needed to be
Do you usually feel sorry for people who touch others without consent? How strange. Does that include men and women? Is it okay to touch people as long as you aren't being sexual about it?

Is it okay for me to be upset because a strange woman touches my arm in a shop? It isn't sexual. So should I just suck it up?

Please clarify. because every person has the right to bodily autonomy.

Pythonista · 18/10/2021 11:37

Or rather:

Who has the right to bodily autonomy?

Pythonista · 18/10/2021 11:39

@LolaSmiles

Breasts are more sexualised than men's pecs, however simple human decency is not to touch people who don't want it.

When someone says to stop, stop.

If people don't understand that then it's worrying and I'd question why anyone would be so invested in pushing the idea that anyone should have to tolerate unwanted contact. It's a bit creepy.

It shouldnt even get to the point where someone has to say stop.

Unless either you know the contact is welcome or you are trying to save someone's life, keep your hands to yourself.

Cornettoninja · 18/10/2021 11:39

@FlatCheese

BillMasen and Findwen are right too, though. In a way she's exploiting her status as a woman to do what she's doing, knowing that men put in this situation can't exactly slap or push away a woman for groping them because they are bigger and stronger. There has to be an acceptable way for him to signal that touching is not ok.
Sorry, I haven’t read tft, but she’s also exploiting her status as a customer over an employee.

He doesn’t know her, he’s in a position of deference to her to a point as he’s working and he doesn’t want anyone molesting his body just because he’s in that position. Threat to physical safety isn’t the only aspect of inappropriate sexual contact.

CounsellorTroi · 18/10/2021 11:39
  • CounsellorTroi The structural power dynamic in society disadvantages women and advantages men, so "woman grabs man's ass" is not "just as bad" as "man grabs woman's ass". Neither is acceptable but at a "society" level they are not the same and it's sexist to pretend they are.

I think it’s sexist to say that men shouldn’t feel as violated by unwanted sexual attention as women.
My very next point covers that, but I get that it was a lot of words so maybe you found it too hard to carry on reading.

Fair point,. I plead guilty to firing off a knee jerk reply without reading the post I was replying to properly.

WellLarDeDar · 18/10/2021 11:43

Pecks and breasts aren't the same thing e.g it's okay for a man to walk around topless but not a woman. Even so, being touched without consent is the same thing, and equally distressing and the woman in the video was 100% in the wrong.

LolaSmiles · 18/10/2021 11:48

It shouldnt even get to the point where someone has to say stop.

Unless either you know the contact is welcome or you are trying to save someone's life, keep your hands to yourself
I 100% agree with you.

I should have been clearer in my first point. By Breasts are more sexualised than men's pecs, however simple human decency is not to touch people who don't want it, I meant that unless someone knows another human is happy for contact it shouldn't happen.
If after ignoring the first bit and touching without consent, once someone says stop it should stop.

It's really weird that there's people on this thread who seem to want to defend people touching strangers without consent isn't it?

BillMasen · 18/10/2021 11:50

It's really weird that there's people on this thread who seem to want to defend people (women) touching strangers (men) without consent isn't it?

I think that’s what they’re defending…

LolaSmiles · 18/10/2021 11:53

BillMasen
It's weird to defend men touching women who haven't consented and weird to defend women touching men who haven't consented.

There's obviously a problem with sexual assault towards women, and men as a class are bigger and stronger, and there's different patterns of behaviour between men and women (as a class), but it's still weird to want to defend unwelcome touching.

CounsellorTroi · 18/10/2021 11:58

I find it bizarre that people are going on about him being bigger and stronger. He was working. His size and strength were irrelevant. He couldn’t just walk away.

godmum56 · 18/10/2021 12:13

@Findwen

I am a man, I have no idea what it is like to have a boob grabbed since I don't have one.

I do have a mans chest though, when women have touched me that way other than in a doctors office it has always been for affection purposes - so it would certainly feel to me as a sex based advance... since that is the only circumstance woman have touched me in that way in that place on my body.

When I have been groped by women in my younger days, it is hard to know what to do about it. A women can tell the man to fuck off, push him away e.t.c. That is not so easy as man since:

  1. You are a man ! You are supposed to like it !
  2. Raising your voice at women is always bad.
  3. Pushing women is always bad.

So options are really limited to a persistent groper.

I AM NOT SAYING WOMEN HAVE IT EASIER am just saying pushing away sexual advances is not as easy as some here have suggested.

Perhaps think of it another way - if it is not inappropriate and sexual, you wouldn't mind if your best fried touched your male partner that way whenever they met up ?

yup....different circs but we had a spate of teenaged gangs threatening and attacking people who were walking home from local pubs/restaurants in the village near me. My late husband was built like a brick outhouse and would have had no problem seeing them off but in the ensuing ruckus they would probably have been injured and him not. My concern that he would then have been portrayed as a well built grown up male injuring children so if he went for a beer with his mates, i would go and collect him rather than let him walk home. If a woman had been involved and had injured her attackers, then I am sure that the implication of "adult hurting children" would not have been there....not saying its okay for anyone to be attacked but yes, some situations are harder for men to deal with.
godmum56 · 18/10/2021 12:16

oh ps the gangs of teenagers were boys AND girls. Imagine the furor, if a male adult defending himself had injured a gilr!

Pythonista · 18/10/2021 12:25

Perhaps think of it another way - if it is not inappropriate and sexual, you wouldn't mind if your best fried touched your male partner that way whenever they met up ?

Or even...

Has the person indicated that physical contact is appropriate and welcome? No? Then don't touch.

DillonPanthersTexas · 18/10/2021 12:28

Also perpetuates the notion that there is no such thing as unwanted sexual attention from women as far as men are concerned, that they are always “up for it”.

Spot on.

Men from a young age are conditioned to laugh it off or not complain out of fear or derision from both their peer group and the woman doing the groping.

Attitudes are changing (as evidenced by the comments on this thread) but there is still very much a view amongst a sizable minority of women that unwanted sexual touching of men is not as serious an issue or should be taken as a compliment or a joke. Anecdotally, pretty much all my male friends have been grabbed in nightclubs or bars at some point and most of the time it is just met with a shrug because what can you do? Nobody is going to take a complaint seriously. On the rare occasions that I have verbally responded with a weary ‘fck off’ when a woman has grabbed my cock as she walked past me in a club I have been accosted by her mates for having ‘a problem’ or my personal favourite ‘are you fcking gay’.

In my early 20s I used to work in a certain south coast bar popular with hen and stag dos and it would seem that for hen do’s grabbing or kissing blokes without consent was part of the standard ‘dare’ rituals that such occasions promote. The male bar staff were always getting propositioned to snog the bride, getting ‘felt up’ for a laugh or being asked to handover their pants as part of some game challenge, refusal to comply was often met with abuse. Unsurprisingly the women staff were subject to unwanted touching too but security would remove the individuals or groups responsible without question, the men just had to ‘deal with it’.

When I played rugby it was not uncommon for some women to enter the men’s changing rooms from the bar area post game and ogle at the blokes in the showers or try and rip the towels off players, they were quickly shown the door but such actions were dismissed as ‘funny’ and there were zero consequences. I knew quite a few team mates who were very self conscious and pissed off over these changing room invasions.

I get there is a whole raft of different power dynamics at play with regards to the very real consequences of actual physical harm depending on whether it is a women or a man dealing with unwanted sexual attention. Sadly there are too many men out there who will respond with violence towards a woman who has the audacity to object to being sexually harassed. Equally there seems to be a complete dismissal by some that women to men sexual harassment is even a thing and I have certainly seen on these forums in the past the mocking ‘what about the poor menz’ comments when anyone dares raises the subject.

CuckooCall · 18/10/2021 12:29

Well if you're saying that breasts and pecs are viewed differently from each other then yes you'd be right. Men walk around topless and no one cares if they see a man's nipple. Whereas breasts are very much more sexualised and women don't walk around topless (unless in specific designated areas).

However, touching breasts or pecs without the other person's permission is a complete no. It is no more acceptable to grab a man's body than a woman's body, and no one should be touching another person without their consent.

So to sum it up, you're conflating two different things.

Lulu2021 · 18/10/2021 12:40

@DillonPanthersTexas

Also perpetuates the notion that there is no such thing as unwanted sexual attention from women as far as men are concerned, that they are always “up for it”.

Spot on.

Men from a young age are conditioned to laugh it off or not complain out of fear or derision from both their peer group and the woman doing the groping.

Attitudes are changing (as evidenced by the comments on this thread) but there is still very much a view amongst a sizable minority of women that unwanted sexual touching of men is not as serious an issue or should be taken as a compliment or a joke. Anecdotally, pretty much all my male friends have been grabbed in nightclubs or bars at some point and most of the time it is just met with a shrug because what can you do? Nobody is going to take a complaint seriously. On the rare occasions that I have verbally responded with a weary ‘fck off’ when a woman has grabbed my cock as she walked past me in a club I have been accosted by her mates for having ‘a problem’ or my personal favourite ‘are you fcking gay’.

In my early 20s I used to work in a certain south coast bar popular with hen and stag dos and it would seem that for hen do’s grabbing or kissing blokes without consent was part of the standard ‘dare’ rituals that such occasions promote. The male bar staff were always getting propositioned to snog the bride, getting ‘felt up’ for a laugh or being asked to handover their pants as part of some game challenge, refusal to comply was often met with abuse. Unsurprisingly the women staff were subject to unwanted touching too but security would remove the individuals or groups responsible without question, the men just had to ‘deal with it’.

When I played rugby it was not uncommon for some women to enter the men’s changing rooms from the bar area post game and ogle at the blokes in the showers or try and rip the towels off players, they were quickly shown the door but such actions were dismissed as ‘funny’ and there were zero consequences. I knew quite a few team mates who were very self conscious and pissed off over these changing room invasions.

I get there is a whole raft of different power dynamics at play with regards to the very real consequences of actual physical harm depending on whether it is a women or a man dealing with unwanted sexual attention. Sadly there are too many men out there who will respond with violence towards a woman who has the audacity to object to being sexually harassed. Equally there seems to be a complete dismissal by some that women to men sexual harassment is even a thing and I have certainly seen on these forums in the past the mocking ‘what about the poor menz’ comments when anyone dares raises the subject.

Excellent post.

BillMasen · 18/10/2021 12:49

@DillonPanthersTexas

Also perpetuates the notion that there is no such thing as unwanted sexual attention from women as far as men are concerned, that they are always “up for it”.

Spot on.

Men from a young age are conditioned to laugh it off or not complain out of fear or derision from both their peer group and the woman doing the groping.

Attitudes are changing (as evidenced by the comments on this thread) but there is still very much a view amongst a sizable minority of women that unwanted sexual touching of men is not as serious an issue or should be taken as a compliment or a joke. Anecdotally, pretty much all my male friends have been grabbed in nightclubs or bars at some point and most of the time it is just met with a shrug because what can you do? Nobody is going to take a complaint seriously. On the rare occasions that I have verbally responded with a weary ‘fck off’ when a woman has grabbed my cock as she walked past me in a club I have been accosted by her mates for having ‘a problem’ or my personal favourite ‘are you fcking gay’.

In my early 20s I used to work in a certain south coast bar popular with hen and stag dos and it would seem that for hen do’s grabbing or kissing blokes without consent was part of the standard ‘dare’ rituals that such occasions promote. The male bar staff were always getting propositioned to snog the bride, getting ‘felt up’ for a laugh or being asked to handover their pants as part of some game challenge, refusal to comply was often met with abuse. Unsurprisingly the women staff were subject to unwanted touching too but security would remove the individuals or groups responsible without question, the men just had to ‘deal with it’.

When I played rugby it was not uncommon for some women to enter the men’s changing rooms from the bar area post game and ogle at the blokes in the showers or try and rip the towels off players, they were quickly shown the door but such actions were dismissed as ‘funny’ and there were zero consequences. I knew quite a few team mates who were very self conscious and pissed off over these changing room invasions.

I get there is a whole raft of different power dynamics at play with regards to the very real consequences of actual physical harm depending on whether it is a women or a man dealing with unwanted sexual attention. Sadly there are too many men out there who will respond with violence towards a woman who has the audacity to object to being sexually harassed. Equally there seems to be a complete dismissal by some that women to men sexual harassment is even a thing and I have certainly seen on these forums in the past the mocking ‘what about the poor menz’ comments when anyone dares raises the subject.

Spot on.

I’d guess the vast majority of men have been groped and touched up at some point. Everyone I know has and a lot of posters on this thread have too.

I also think we’ve all had the same experience of getting abuse if we object, the whole thing being a joke, and being laughed at for not finding it funny (or a turn on)

This thread is about a woman touching a man when not wanted and told not to. I’m pleased the vast majority agree it is unacceptable

CuckooCall · 18/10/2021 12:53

@DillonPanthersTexas

Also perpetuates the notion that there is no such thing as unwanted sexual attention from women as far as men are concerned, that they are always “up for it”.

Spot on.

Men from a young age are conditioned to laugh it off or not complain out of fear or derision from both their peer group and the woman doing the groping.

Attitudes are changing (as evidenced by the comments on this thread) but there is still very much a view amongst a sizable minority of women that unwanted sexual touching of men is not as serious an issue or should be taken as a compliment or a joke. Anecdotally, pretty much all my male friends have been grabbed in nightclubs or bars at some point and most of the time it is just met with a shrug because what can you do? Nobody is going to take a complaint seriously. On the rare occasions that I have verbally responded with a weary ‘fck off’ when a woman has grabbed my cock as she walked past me in a club I have been accosted by her mates for having ‘a problem’ or my personal favourite ‘are you fcking gay’.

In my early 20s I used to work in a certain south coast bar popular with hen and stag dos and it would seem that for hen do’s grabbing or kissing blokes without consent was part of the standard ‘dare’ rituals that such occasions promote. The male bar staff were always getting propositioned to snog the bride, getting ‘felt up’ for a laugh or being asked to handover their pants as part of some game challenge, refusal to comply was often met with abuse. Unsurprisingly the women staff were subject to unwanted touching too but security would remove the individuals or groups responsible without question, the men just had to ‘deal with it’.

When I played rugby it was not uncommon for some women to enter the men’s changing rooms from the bar area post game and ogle at the blokes in the showers or try and rip the towels off players, they were quickly shown the door but such actions were dismissed as ‘funny’ and there were zero consequences. I knew quite a few team mates who were very self conscious and pissed off over these changing room invasions.

I get there is a whole raft of different power dynamics at play with regards to the very real consequences of actual physical harm depending on whether it is a women or a man dealing with unwanted sexual attention. Sadly there are too many men out there who will respond with violence towards a woman who has the audacity to object to being sexually harassed. Equally there seems to be a complete dismissal by some that women to men sexual harassment is even a thing and I have certainly seen on these forums in the past the mocking ‘what about the poor menz’ comments when anyone dares raises the subject.

Great post and sums up the issue perfectly.
WhoWearsShortShorts · 18/10/2021 12:59

The apologists aren't going to like this but it doesnt actually matter how big and strong he is - in that situation the woman is in the position of power as she is the customer. What if his employers minimised his experience to the extent some of you lot are? He could lose his job if he doesn't handle it properly.

Simonjt · 18/10/2021 13:14

@CounsellorTroi

I find it bizarre that people are going on about him being bigger and stronger. He was working. His size and strength were irrelevant. He couldn’t just walk away.
I wonder what size someone has to be for sexual assault to become okay.
ConstanceGracy · 18/10/2021 13:23

Yabvu.
She should not have touched him anywhere and I’m glad he told her to get lost, it’s a family park not a bar