School aren't helping with morning routine

[Agelikeafinebottleofblacktower]

My dd has always been anxious. Since starting back at school she has had serious meltdowns every morning, crying for up to forty minutes, shaking walking to school. At her age this behaviour is quite unusual, especially as she was better (1-2 meltdowns at drop off per week) in previous years. I feel it's sensory, as she is perfectly happy walking to school and excited to see friends but seizes up and bolts for the gate as soon as she gets in the playground. It's quite different from last year (covid) as all the kids are in the playground together as well as all the parents, dogs, teachers etc and she just can't tolerate the noise, chaos of it.
School have offered a breakfast club so she can avoid this. There's not a breakfast club currently apart from for kids with additional needs and low income families, so there's about six kids who attend in the whole school. My dd went yesterday and loved it, the school said she was calm and ready to join the class at lesson time. However, they can not accommodate my ds who is also at school. So if my dd goes I then have a 45 minute wait with him, not enough time to go home, no park local and it's cold and wet. I feel this is really unfair and might impact on his feelings about school, as he has to leave home earlier and will have a long wait before starting.
Can I push this and should I as he does not fit the criteria?

@lovemelongtime

Sorry but posters suggesting the OP does something meaningful or fun every morning. Really??? 45 mins every morning with a 4 year old in winter outdoors when he could be at home having breakfast and getting ready - this is not the real world .

I don’t see a choice. The school did her a favour by putting her daughter in the breakfast club (all of her posts have been cagey about her paying for it & so assume it’s a freebie). So she should make the best out of the situation for her younger son. It’s what parents do.

@ballsdeep No, I'm not completely missing the point. The op said the club was for sen children and low income families. That implies that they don't just have sen children there. I see no problem with the child's sibling attending if that's the case.

If you live close enough to walk then can you not walk your son home again? Or take bikes so it’s even quicker? If they allowed NT siblings to join the club to help parents with their morning routines () then it would somewhat defeat the point of the group, no?

I think your being rather unfair on the school here especially if you haven’t even asked about if they can accommodate your son too.

So absolutely it is the school’s responsibility to settle her and they aren’t doing her some massive favour.

Having seen a few of these go through it's way more complex.

If DD is bolting because she just doesn't want to go to school that's the parents responsibility to adequately prep the child, not saying school dont usefully have a role but that's not schools responsibility.

If it's because of depression etc, the OP needs GP involvement.

If the child is bolting because school havent made adequate provision for education and this is causing childs distress, its schools responsibility. The cases I've seen of this often are damn challenging for the parent to prove in tribunal but often result in a change/improvement of school provision. Some just remove the child and homeschool. Either way you need strong GP support.

The one I saw that was really messy was when a child refused to attend after a serious (out of school) bullying incident. School said they had made adequate provision by moving the bullied child to a seperate class. Common sense says that isnt adequate but LEA were disputing this and persuing a SAO. as the child is now electively homeschool Im not close enough to the mum to know where the legally side ended up.

If the OPs DD is engaged at school and gets into school with the aid of the breakfast club, it's a neat and comparatively stress free solution. But it also suggests it isnt a failure of school provision generally. Or at least if it is (eg ASD girls masking) the OP has a long road ahead to prove it and get it sorted. Easier if you have the school onside

School have offered a solution that works for your DD.

You need a solution to your logistics. Do you have a DH/partner that can step up and help either dropping DD early or dropping DS later?

Or drive to drop DD off, drive home the walk later with DS? DS would either be at home with DH or comes with you for the drive.

Rather than taking DD to breakfast club 45 mins earlier, try arriving in the playground 20 mins before usual time so she’s the first one there. This would mean the noise/sights build up around her rather than being a “wall” she’s confronted with when she arrives. This way you wait 20 mins not 45 mins.

Op, I think you may be better posting this on the SEN board as most people here do not understand and are just calling you entitled.

When my son had severe sensory issues (he's autistic), which meant that he couldn't cope with the noise, busyness, stress, of the other children before school or at breaks, the school let him in early to sit in the reading area (library would be too grand a term for it) and that calmed him down. In fact he was allowed to retreat there at any time as the playground, dinner hall etc all caused him issues.

I also don't think it's entitled to ask the school if they can accomodate your son. It isn't your concern about all the other children and there's no harm in asking.

Other than that, do you have a partner who can do one of the school runs?

@Caramellatteplease

So absolutely it is the school’s responsibility to settle her and they aren’t doing her some massive favour.

Having seen a few of these go through it's way more complex.

If DD is bolting because she just doesn't want to go to school that's the parents responsibility to adequately prep the child, not saying school dont usefully have a role but that's not schools responsibility.

If it's because of depression etc, the OP needs GP involvement.

If the child is bolting because school havent made adequate provision for education and this is causing childs distress, its schools responsibility. The cases I've seen of this often are damn challenging for the parent to prove in tribunal but often result in a change/improvement of school provision. Some just remove the child and homeschool. Either way you need strong GP support.

The one I saw that was really messy was when a child refused to attend after a serious (out of school) bullying incident. School said they had made adequate provision by moving the bullied child to a seperate class. Common sense says that isnt adequate but LEA were disputing this and persuing a SAO. as the child is now electively homeschool Im not close enough to the mum to know where the legally side ended up.

If the OPs DD is engaged at school and gets into school with the aid of the breakfast club, it's a neat and comparatively stress free solution. But it also suggests it isnt a failure of school provision generally. Or at least if it is (eg ASD girls masking) the OP has a long road ahead to prove it and get it sorted. Easier if you have the school onside

Surely it depends on other factors too. For example my DD as I said had huge meltdowns during Y5 and Y6. In large parts this could be down to her autism but the school also allowed her to be bullied for 7 months in Y4 despite countless meetings SLT. I removed her from school for a short period (leading to an almighty row between me and deputy head). So in a way I did blame the school for allowing that situation to continue and felt that her fear of school wouldn't have been so bad if not for the bullying. So yes I felt they should have supported her going in to school. OP hasn't mentioned bullying or anything like that but I just don't think it's as simple as parents get them in to school. It needs to be a partnership surely?

@Briarshollow

If you live close enough to walk then can you not walk your son home again? Or take bikes so it’s even quicker? If they allowed NT siblings to join the club to help parents with their morning routines () then it would somewhat defeat the point of the group, no?

We live close enough to walk. 20 minutes each way. So in ops position we'd walk there (20 minutes), then walk home, have a wee and walk back. So that's an hour of walking backwards and forward for a young child.

I agree OP needs to find a compromise that works but "close enough to walk" doesn't mean across the road

I really don't mean to sound awful but I think you have both got into a cycle of anxiety. You sound rather anxious yourself and that is contagious for a child

Is there anyone else who could drop her off and see how that works? DH / GP's?

I think you'd be better posting on the SEN board too @Agelikeafinebottleofblacktower

I think it’s odd they have such a small, exclusive breakfast club. School breakfast clubs are usually for those with working parents who need their DC to be at school from 8am. My DC have been to 3 primary schools in total in 2 different towns and this has been the case in all so unsure why your DC’s school is so selective.

You said you haven’t even asked whether DS can go so I’d start there, they might say yes. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

The op said the club was for sen children and low income families. That implies that they don't just have sen children there. I see no problem with the child's sibling attending if that's the case.

The breakfast club has to be funded. For children with SEN the cost will be covered by the SEN budget and for low income families it will be covered by pupil premium money. A place for the sibling of a child with SEN can't reasonably be funded from either of those places, so it would have to be paid for. There is already an option of paying for a breakfast club nearby, so the school are quite reasonable in not offering an additional paid for breakfast club.

It’s not odd when you think about it @Generallystruggling The school identified that some children with SEND struggle with arriving at school + they had enough SEND budget to cover eg 3xstaff for 1hr every morning = the ideal solution is a breakfast club as gentle, less overwhelming warm up to the school day.

It’s completely separate to a paid for breakfast club open to all. Maybe they don’t have the space to run both and so they prioritised the SEND one.

@Generallystruggling

I think it’s odd they have such a small, exclusive breakfast club. School breakfast clubs are usually for those with working parents who need their DC to be at school from 8am. My DC have been to 3 primary schools in total in 2 different towns and this has been the case in all so unsure why your DC’s school is so selective.

You said you haven’t even asked whether DS can go so I’d start there, they might say yes. If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

This club is what DD's primary used to call 'Morning club', and is separate to a childcare activity (which the OP says is available just not onsite). The point of the 'Morning club' was to ensure children from chaotic homes actually got breakfast before school each day to enable them to learn better, and to give them some focused attention and a breather between home and the school day. Also useful for some children with SEN who find transitions difficult.

Breakfast club at our school is private and the company lease the space from the school.
There is the other Breakfast club on the same road is there not?

I can’t see why she needs to be there 45 minutes early, 20-25 minutes should be ok and not not too much for you to wait outside.

Do you have a car, I know you chose the school as you wanted to walk but if you have one, you can take it and wait in the car for a while.

Also, this seems to be a temporary solution, not one for life so dealing with a bit of inconvenience on your side to help your DD, it is not much for the school to ask.

I couldn't work this on a practical level. It's helping your daughter but not great for your son, so to me it's a non-workable solution. Not so bad now but what about when it's bloody freezing?

I would go back to the drawing board OP, I wouldn't push for your son to be allowed if they've already said no, especially when they've been accommodating with DD.

Maybe try posting in the SEN boards and see if anybody has any helpful tips on getting DD to cope better in the playground.

I'd ask if you can drop her later at the club and maybe on really rainy days ask if your son can go into his classroom a bit earlier so you're not waiting as long

I would ask for advice on the Not Fine At School website.
Many parents there in similar circumstances.

Can you ask if your son can go and say you’ll
Provide the food he eats?

It needs to be a partnership surely?

Morally and for best child outcomes yes definitely. Bear in mind the cases I was mentioning were when the partnership was so far broken down that the legal requirements become all important because that's what's actually enforceable

But if your going to go spouting how the school is doing no more than its legal duty you need to be sure you understand what that legal duty is.

Schools are under massive pressure financially and staffing wise. SN provision is often cut to the bone. What the OPs school have offered, at no additional cost to the OP, is way beyond their legal requirements and will come at a cost to them. I'd say this is possibly sign the OP has one of the good ones. Of course it could also be the school is one of the ones that are offering something legally above and beyond to cover their backs if the LEA go after the OP. I'm too cynical not to rule that out as a possibility.

Either way Generally I find the best way of creating a partnership is recognising the value the other party is bringing to the table and getting them onside. Under valuing the schools contribution when potentially the OP has long road ahead might well be an own goal.

Not so bad now but what about when it's bloody freezing?

Do kids not go out in the snow any more?
If it's bloody freezing then wrap up warm. It's not rocket science.

YABVU Your thread title is making you sound massively entitled OP. It's not the schools job 'to help with your morning routine'.

You have outlined an issue that your DD is having getting into school in the morning and school have provided a good solution to this. That's great, they are doing their job.

The fact that this presents a logistics issue for you is a separate matter. It's not the schools job to problem solve your personal travel arrangements. You are currently choosing to walk the DC to school and then on to work well, if that now doesn't work with your DDs need to attend school earlier, you need to reassess that choice.

For example, If you opt to drive to school, you can leave the house a little later than if waking, drop off DD and then spend the time keeping warm and dry with DS in the car, reading, chatting playing a game, whatever. Then drop him at school and go off to work.

There are solutions here, you need to flexible , not expect the world to adapt around you.

@MiddlesexGirl
Oh come on no one wants their kids to spend 225 min a week outside school in the cold when they could go inside for breakfast with a sibling