Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

This conversation makes me think there must be a sort of Académie Française for BSL. It's worked great for the French so why not....

@lobsternapkin

Not everyone has perfect english/can develop perfect Emglish so why allow them to learn any English?

Yet again people cherry picking part of the reasoning and using as justification for oppressing and dismising it rather than actually realising that those who use sign language daily may know a little more than those who dont.
Would a 1 yr old child uaing English understand culture of course not but do we still use English with them ? Yes we do we use the English Lamguage with them and pitch it at thwir level. So conversing in a buisness meeting about biscuits isnt going to be the same conversation as the one you have with a toddler but both will use English.

Show me a couse where someone can learn just English to use with babies and disabled?

Would we accept someone teaching and supporting our children learn English that has done at best 24 hrs of learning it and in many cases 6 hrs and far too often had no lessons at all.

[quote Aria999]@Naunet the race debate in America is very very heavily bound up in the history of slavery here.

British people often don't fully appreciate this when importing memes.[/quote]
Where did I post a meme? I do understand the slave history, that’s exactly why I’m saying we shouldn’t look to America for lessons on race. It also in no way, ever gave Americans the right to decide Spanish people aren’t white. That really pisses me off as a Spanish person myself.

Where did I post a meme? I do understand the slave history, that’s exactly why I’m saying we shouldn’t look to America for lessons on race. It also in no way, ever gave Americans the right to decide Spanish people aren’t white. That really pisses me off as a Spanish person mysel

It’s deliberate in the US. No way should someone of Hispanic descent be automatically considered non-white unless they have substantial native heritage, especially when they were essentially colonists.

But rest assured. They’ll be treated like Italian-Americans (who were also considered non-white back in the day) when they are no longer politically useful.

[quote Covidworries]@lobsternapkin

Not everyone has perfect english/can develop perfect Emglish so why allow them to learn any English?

Yet again people cherry picking part of the reasoning and using as justification for oppressing and dismising it rather than actually realising that those who use sign language daily may know a little more than those who dont.
Would a 1 yr old child uaing English understand culture of course not but do we still use English with them ? Yes we do we use the English Lamguage with them and pitch it at thwir level. So conversing in a buisness meeting about biscuits isnt going to be the same conversation as the one you have with a toddler but both will use English.

Show me a couse where someone can learn just English to use with babies and disabled?

Would we accept someone teaching and supporting our children learn English that has done at best 24 hrs of learning it and in many cases 6 hrs and far too often had no lessons at all.[/quote]
No, you are really missing the point. What I am saying is there is no such thing as "perfect English". That's a fundamental misunderstanding of how language works.

I was thinking in my comment of the many spoken languages that include some elements of English, without constituting the whole language. Hinglish, or Franglaise for example. None of these pass muster as "standard" versions of English, French, or Hindi, either in terms of vocabulary, grammar, or pronunciation. But you know what - that is ok. They are their own thing. They represent a new cultural reality that is not a degradation of anything.

They are natural outgrowth which is somewhat different of course, but there is an important principle which you don't show any sign of having understood. Elements from one language can be used in new ways, either natural outgrowths, or artificially put together, such as in symbolic logic or computer languages. None of these represent some sort of "degradation" as the French Academy might have us believe, they are simply new uses that are good if they fulfill a function. They don't have to embody or even include the culture of any of the the original sources.

Several people have mentioned to you that when they use signs in their context they are not meant to stand alone but are always used together with spoken language. That is, they represent a hybrid language in a similar way to something like Hinglish. That's not some kind of blow against English, nor against BSL. There are no English police to tell people they have to use our language in the "right" way, and you aren't the sign police, nor are BSL speakers. What matters is that people, in the context they are in, find something useful.

So where are the courses if English for people who wont be able to learn real English?

Why isnt a more English version of Welsh taught in schools because not everyone can learn Welsh?

It is you that do not understand.

Languages evolve and develop that is whar langauges do. But can you honetly say you would have no issue with a non english langauge user changing English and making it hard for English users in the UK to use actual English.

Again SSE sign supported English has been used long before makaton was set up. BSLskilled people are most qualified and skilled and knowledgable to adapt to different people needs. Makaton created something that already exists. They put down, oppressed and ignored the experts because they wanted the recognition them selves regaedless of the fact this givea a lesser quality provision to the most in need.

That is cultural appropriation.

I was reminded of this thread today when I saw some friends had gone to a local Oktoberfest wearing Bavarian costumes. I doubt any of them speak German, never mind Bavarian dialect. Cultural appropriation right there. Except that it isn't because it's another European culture being "appropriated".

As for language changes, that is called a creole.

And surely it's good for people with hearing difficulties the more people learn BSL? And more generally, how on earth can learning a language be considered cultural appropriation. It's completely the opposite! Learning a language teaches you so much about the culture.

@lockdownmadnessdotcom

Have you actually read the thread?

I have not said people shouldnt learn BSL. I want people to learn BSL

To clarify (not cultural appropriation)
Learning BSL
Using BSL
Video yourself doing BSL for feedback to help you develop skills.
Working in collaboration with BSL users to develop an item linked to BSL

BUT (IS cultural appropriation)
Posting BSL teaching video when you cant sign correctly
Setting up courses to teach when you cant sign correctly
Making a BSL product when you dont know the sign and ultimately get it wrong on the product.
Makaton those who took the signs fromnBSL to create makaton. Something that already exists and didnt need making in the first place

@Naunet apologies I didn't mean you did. It was a different issue that your post made me think of.

Normally on official forms and things hispanic people here can choose whether to self define as white or non white.

I agree it's a bit strange though. I guess it's because Hispanic people here are a significant and quite cohesive cultural group. But yes it's strange and I can see why you would find it annoying.

But can you honetly say you would have no issue with a non english langauge user changing English and making it hard for English users in the UK to use actual English.

Well this what happened with the Normans and the reason why there are so many French words in English….

Is it that it comes down to race vs ethnicity the white / non-white issue? For example my father looks like a white man but is ethnically from the West Indies. That's a whole separate discussion regarding 'passing' but in so far as race and ethnicity goes you can be white but not 'white' iyswim. But again as pointed out the racial identity discourse in the U.S is different from U.K.

Yes but is it happening now ? On a daily basis impacting people negatively and reducing their potential

Interesting that the definition of white is getting narrower and narrower. There are white people from different countries but very soon, white people will only be seen as those from the UK and US.

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

Interesting that the definition of white is getting narrower and narrower. There are white people from different countries but very soon, white people will only be seen as those from the UK and US.

It’s actually gone the opposite. Italians weren’t considered white in the US but very much are now; same will probably happen to Hispanics when they are no longer politically useful.

From the loony left fringes in the US some even say Asian-Americans are ‘white-adjacent’ whatever that means 🙄

Err… saying that Italians aren’t white was batshit though.
I wouldn’t say that they are progressing. They are just getting back into the real world instead.

@GoOnDoAnASEyeroll

Interesting that the definition of white is getting narrower and narrower. There are white people from different countries but very soon, white people will only be seen as those from the UK and US.

I dunno. Aren't Asians in the US now considered "white adjacent" - so it's apparently okay for Harvard to actively discriminate against them because they're doing so well academically? (link here - www.theguardian.com/education/2018/jun/15/harvard-sued-discrimination-against-asian-americans)

It seems like in some circles whiteness is less and less related to actual racial heritage and more something that is synonymous with badness, wrongness etc. People who display unwelcome qualities (such as being really academically brilliant, or voting for centre-right parties) can now be shuffled over into the category of 'whiteness' or 'white adjacent'. Plenty of black people get called 'white supremacists' when they don't do what black people are 'supposed' to do.

The only white person that I can think of with corn rows is Bo Derek (in the 80s?). I assume she (or her partner rather) made a lot of money at the time as I guess it must have been unusual and she was stunning.

But I can't recall anyone else wearing this style - models and certainly nobody IRL

It seems like in some circles whiteness is less and less related to actual racial heritage and more something that is synonymous with badness, wrongness etc

It does seem to be the case in some circles, yes

@UsedUpUsername
@beastlyslumber

Yes those are true too. Didn't think of it from that angle. It's that contradiction that's rife in some circles, isn't it? On one hand, it is this and on the other hand, it is that. You can never tell where the goalpost is.

Also, like a pp said: There is a real contradiction in wanting an oppressed group to be seen as equal, and not wanting their culture to be seen as interesting or compelling or to have cultural power

You can never tell where the goalpost is.

They'll move the goalposts wherever they need to! I think the goalposts are now wide enough to accommodate old fashioned racism, woke neo-racism, and anti-white racism. No one wins. We all lose. And we all go down fighting among ourselves.

I really think that we need to bring back the messages of the civil rights movement: where we judge people on their character and NOT the colour of their skin. End segregation. And bring back equal rights for all.

@owlbethere

I don’t understand the whole cultural appropriation thing. I don’t. I’m Asian and as long as people are not taking the piss or being mean in their dress why should I care if someone wears a kimono? Many of my family in Japan make their living selling kimono and Yukata or montsuki and hakama to tourists. You’d be killing their business if westerners weren’t allowed to buy them.

This is something I thought of whilst reading this ridiculous thread. You can buy fashion items from individuals or small businesses all over the world. I'm pretty sure they don't want tourists to not buy their items because it's appropriating their culture.

Here is a link that may help those you were unable to understand my comments nits american so ASL american sign language but BSL british sign language is the same

www.handspeak.com/learn/index.php?id=351

To clarify ASL and BSL not the same language, but the same concept in relationto cultural appropriation

so ASL american sign language but BSL british sign language is the same

OMG I can't believe you're not recognising the differences between BSL and ASL!!! Cultural appropriation at its worst!

So where are the courses if English for people who wont be able to learn real English?

It’s evolved already, with non-standard English being widely accepted and no longer seen as a marker of an uneducated individual.

Along with correct punctuation and grammar. I may yet live to see the death of the possessive apostrophe.