Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

@Covidworries

Because the culture is integral to sign language

In what way?

It is a little odd to assume that there is only one culture associated with a language.
Spanish for example is spoken throughout the world within very different cultures, different variations of the language and different pronunciations.

The people I worked with had their own culture and used Makaton in a way that worked for them. They were unlikely to be able to speak bsl as a stand alone language and it is even more unlikely that they could have recruited carers with this ability.
It is possible for perfect to become the enemy of good.

It wouldn't be appropriate for the hearing community to dictate how the deaf community used bsl. I don't think it is appropriate for the deaf community to tell the learning disabled community how to use makaton either.

For instance, my friends little girl is 2 she is deaf, they have no deaf family or friends and they and she both need to learn to sign. They are meant to have a teacher come to help them, for an hour a week which is pitiful anyway, and due to covid the visits are non-existent: I know some basic bsl due to my job as a SLT and they’ve asked me to help. I don’t claim to be a teacher but am I now meant to not help because I’m appropriating a culture??

Very good point @ducksalive

Sign language is a different modality to spoken languages. There are aspects of all spoken languages that have things in common with each other even through the languages are different. All sign languages can be very different languages also but they have a common link to each other.

For example BSL is very direct language. English can be around the houses and not at all direct.
One mistake makaton teachers often make is they wont sign numbers correctly as they are worried that the number 2 vould be seen as rude (english culture /concept). But in altering that sign they actually make the sign harder to recieve information. Especially problematic when you consider their target audience are going to struggle with unclear messages.

But the BSL sign for 2 isnt rude any more than the word fun is in English. Yes fun shares the same first letter as a rude english word but that doesnt mean all f letter words are rude.

So without cultural understanding people too often dont grasp the significant and importance of the signs.

@owlbethere

Yes of course you can help.
This is the huge issue with support. The support is there but often the LA dont want to pay for it.
The support should be far easier available for families.
If you want to PM i can help the family find more support in area. Sadly the people meant to support often dont have good local knowlegde of support in area.

@ducksalive

You cant possibly know how they would have fared with adequate BSL support because they werent given this opportunity.

Show me 1 sign used in makaton where the BSL sign is to difficult for a makaton user?

I can tell you that I would struggle learning bsl and I don't think I would be the only carer to do so.
There has been extensive talk about bsl being it's own integral language I find learning languages very difficult.
I can manage the individual add on signs of Makaton.

I don't think it is appropriate for one community to tell another how they should communicate.

Makaton is used alongside English, it isn't meant to be a replacement for bsl it is meant to be an add to run alongside English.

I understand that some posters feel passionately about using bsl but Makaton is it's own communication aid for distinct purposes.

It isn't reasonable to insist that different groups communicate in a way you personally consider superior if they have found something that works for them.

So because you would struggle. Never tried but somehow know you would struggle. Those who would benefit most should be denied it.

Makaton literally wouldnt exist without BSL. I am fully skilled and knowledgeable in both and have worked with a variety of disabilities so yes i feel it is appropriate for me to comment and say what would be most useful and beneficial.

I am also able to say that what makaton did was appropriation. People benefited from slavery that doesnt make slavery right.
People benefit from makaton true but thaey would equally benefit from BSL in fact the would benefit more.

Actually I have tried, I'm sure you are aware this is something which happens.
Gaining some qualifications in Makaton and looking to see if you can also get a handle on bsl. In my case I really couldn't.

I am as someone who struggles with certain communication issues ( I'm dyslexic) prepared to take a punt that others with communication issues could also struggle.

I'm not really seeing the link between slavery and a simplified language being developed to help certain groups who struggle with communication issues.

If the groups who currently use Makaton want to move to a more sophisticated stand alone language I would definitely support that. Equally if they are happy with the system they have then maybe just accept that should be supported as well.

Which did you learn first? And where did you learn BSL?

Igive me an examole if a sign in BSl that was too hard compared to its makayon conterpart?

Well done for completely derailing the thread @Covidworries

As I said I learned Makaton first and then tried to pick up bsl, I did all of this learning at colleges in London.

I did this too long ago to remember anything as specific as individual sign differences.

It is incidental to my point that individual groups should be able to decide for themselves which communication works for them.

I wanted to highlight that Makaton worked well in my experience.
I have no issues with other people having different experiences.

Sorry for my part in thread derailing. I won't comment further on this.

@beastlyslumber derailing a thread about cultural appropriation by discussing cuturlal appropriation ???? How odd

[quote Covidworries]@owlbethere

Yes of course you can help.
This is the huge issue with support. The support is there but often the LA dont want to pay for it.
The support should be far easier available for families.
If you want to PM i can help the family find more support in area. Sadly the people meant to support often dont have good local knowlegde of support in area.[/quote]
That would be great! Thank you!

[quote Covidworries]@ducksalive

You cant possibly know how they would have fared with adequate BSL support because they werent given this opportunity.

Show me 1 sign used in makaton where the BSL sign is to difficult for a makaton user?[/quote]
There are plenty of people with physical or learning disabilities who benefit from makaton who would have no hope of using bsl.

Again what is your expertise to state they would have no hope of using BSL. What sign is possible for them to do in makaton but not BSL ?

You do realise there are BSL users with both physical and learning disabilities.

@Covidworries

Again what is your expertise to state they would have no hope of using BSL. What sign is possible for them to do in makaton but not BSL ?

You do realise there are BSL users with both physical and learning disabilities.

I’m a SLT I work with children primarily with profound and complex health issues, many of my kids wouldn’t have the manual dexterity to do BSL even though they are perfectly cognitively able, other with sight loss, others dont have the cognitive ability and use even further simplified makaton to express basic needs. Of course there are plenty of people who have learning or physical disabilities who speak BSL. My own son has a learning disability and autism and speaks 3 languages. But there are degrees of disability. Also as you yourself pointed out the help to learn bsl even for deaf children is lacking, getting teachers to teacher all these people who might be able to use it isn’t going to happen.

Its lacking because the LA dont want to provide quality suppory not that quality support isnt available.

Again give me an example of a sign in BSL that wont work for manual dexterity difficulties but work in makaton.

Fyi there isnt a single sign that is easier in makaton because the signs have been taken from BSL. However, because of the regional variation of BSL it means that a a child with limited dexterity due to disability is unlikely to be able to do the makaton sign for horse which requires 2 different hand shapes with conextion and movement which is extrememly difficult ffrom both a dexterity and coordination perspective. It is also lacking in visual representation. A BSL support worker however would be able to understand this.

The BSL signs for horse however are more visual and far easier to produce due to hand shape, movement etc being less complex and easier for children to understand from a receptive point of view.

Maybe as a SLT you would benefit from some training to widen your comprehension.

@MarshmallowSwede actually I think that the one who started talking about Vikings was me and I am Danish. A Dane with dark brown hair which is why I have these oh-so-charming experiences with being called the n-word.

(If Pia Kærsgaard had been honest about her hair colour maybe the majority of her fans would have been able to understand the concept that a Dane can have dark hair. Funny how fast they forgot that her predecessor had black hair. Oh well, the nasty party has got a blond leader now. They must be sooo happy)

@Covidworries

Its lacking because the LA dont want to provide quality suppory not that quality support isnt available.

Again give me an example of a sign in BSL that wont work for manual dexterity difficulties but work in makaton.

Fyi there isnt a single sign that is easier in makaton because the signs have been taken from BSL. However, because of the regional variation of BSL it means that a a child with limited dexterity due to disability is unlikely to be able to do the makaton sign for horse which requires 2 different hand shapes with conextion and movement which is extrememly difficult ffrom both a dexterity and coordination perspective. It is also lacking in visual representation. A BSL support worker however would be able to understand this.

The BSL signs for horse however are more visual and far easier to produce due to hand shape, movement etc being less complex and easier for children to understand from a receptive point of view.

Maybe as a SLT you would benefit from some training to widen your comprehension.

I understand it’s a finance issue rather than an availability one, that doesn’t really help people who don’t have the accessibility to learn bsl whatever the reason. Horse in the simplified makaton we use is literally the v finger over the hand without the ‘jumping’ movement or an approximation of thst. Lots of our CP and dystonia kids have movements that will look like the bsl for horse already, so the deliberate bringing together of hands is more readable, for our VI kids with usher with peripheral loss need signs to be small and so the bringing together of hands helps that too. Many other of our kids don’t have the cognitive ability to understand a horse or sign horse. So for them it’s moot. I’ve been doing this job for 25 years, and I’m not saying makaton is all we use, in many cases even that is too hard I’m also not saying BSL signs work well in some cases and as I said I do know some BSL and use if with some of the kids. I am saying our kids can’t learn bsl as a language.

Wow its scary that a SLT with 25 yrs experience is so lacking in understanding.

What do I not understand? Do you have experience of profound and multiple disabilities? We work with families to get the best communication method for each specific child.

Yes i do have experience.
You talk about changing signs for those who cant do them the concept/selling point of makaton is the signs are not meant to change.
BSL already has adaptions and those skilled with working with different needs. You mention VI/ushers but without the understanding that there is a huge deafblind community that have experience of BSL use for VI.

Do you also work with experts who experience these challenges on a daily basis ie the deaf, deafblind and other BSL users or is your ablist attitude that they couldnt possible be knowledgable or skilled.

I have posted on the thread about my culture and what is and what is not cultural appropriation. So many posters feel that despite not being part of my culture and with very limited knowledge that they are beyter equipt than me to decide what is and isnt ok.
One suggestion is that you take a step back, switch off your pre concieved ideas and actually try and listen to what is being said.

@Covidworries

Because the culture is integral to sign language

Not everyone who can make good use of signs of some kind needs or can even really take in the elements of deaf culture. If it requires that, it's a very good reason to use a simplified version that doesn't include that element.