Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

@MarshmallowSwede I'm being a bit of a history pedant again but, at least in Britain and Ireland for a significant portion of the population The Vikings are our ancestors, they didn't exactly stay at home in Scandinavia, that's why we've all heard of them (my ancestors come from Orkney so I'm definitely a mixture of Viking and whoever else was around at the time).
@LobsterNapkin has already made the points I would like to make rather more clearly than i would probably manage but I just want to back her up by saying I agree that culture is not a fixed system like science or even law, it's a dynamic system like language constantly evolving and absolutely cannot and will not be controlled in the way some people now seem to expect.

So many of these examples aren't cultural appropriation though by definition. Buying someone an eid present, wearing a sari to an Indian wedding or simply wearing a wax print skirt because you were on holiday in < insert African country> and bought one because you liked it isn't CA. It's just adopting elements of someone else's culture, which I'm sure most people wouldn't have issue with.
I think braids are a very particular emotive issue for some, because they have very deep negative history, so to see the 'oppressor' sporting them as a fashion statement is highly evocative. Very few white people need to wear their hair in braids in order to protect it, whereas Black people do.

Actually you just have to look at Braveheart or The Last Kingdom to see that dreadlocks were common in all cultures. I have seen the white traveller community using locks with reference to this and not black culture.

@Underarmour I don't think the imaginings of film studio costume designers are to be taken at all seriously and Braveheart in particular is a byword for historical innacuracy.

Ok but dreadlocks were common to many cultures due to lack of hairbrushes. There certainly are groups who would have them who are in no way appropriating black culture

They had combs! They are always finding them in middens and graves, they used them all the time!

I don't really care.

Hasn't nearly all R&B/hip-hop etc [or whatever you'd call her genre] for decades now [per Naomi Klein] been about making money by encouraging white youth to fetishize [extremeties of] black style, and black youth to fetishize [extremeties of] white wealth?

@TintinIsBack

It also makes me wonder, can a white british person open a curry house?

Curries are coming from India but no one there eats curries the way they are here.
Curries have been part of the british diet for nearly 2 centuries (first curry house opened mid 1800 if I remember well).

So are they still ethnic foods that only indian/pakistan people can cook? Or are they now part of the british staple diet the same way than fish and chips?

You can't use the word "curry". See this article: www.thetimes.co.uk/article/19666fb4-fa0b-11eb-9518-a24420b7ed4e?shareToken=acc9fc5c29d887b7cd02aeecd001ecbe

@LookingGlassMilk

My Chinese grandmother in law bought me a jade bracelet. She died a few weeks after she gave it to me. I used to wear it all the time but I stopped in recent years because I'm worried that I'll be accused of cultural appropriation because I'm white.

Sometimes dh jokes that I culturally appropriated him. It's funny, but to be honest, I'm kind of worried that we're only a few small steps away from mixed race marriages being frowned upon.

Yup. That's where this is headed, and I'm not being sarcastic at all in saying that.

But mixed race marriages have to a greater or lesser extent always been frowned upon.

You can't use the word "curry"

It's a food blogger's opinion. It's not as if it's legally forbidden

Curry curry curry.

Come get me, food blogger, you ninny.

@Covidworries

To me its not a contradiction through.

I want to be considered and treated equal, because i am.
I want people to see my culture which is beautiful and interesting and amazing. I want people to see us. I want people to learn about our culture and language in a way that is mutually beneficial.

What i do not want is people to misuse our culture and language to their own gain which further oppresses us and further removes our voice.

The things you are talking about for the most part have zero to do with even the most loose examples of cultural appropriation.

People setting themselves up as experts in something on the internet, when they aren't, happens about a lot of things, and it's stupidity, not appropriation.

And taking an idea and making something new with it is also not appropriation. Even a language. Esperanto was an idea that by taking European languages and simplifying them, it would be possible to create inter-cultural exchange harmony without the work of learning an organic langague. Did it work - well, not really, it's mostly spoken by some odd hobbyists, though they seem to get a lot of pleasure out of it. A few people might find it useful. It certainly doesn't have the richness, or give the access to a culture, that learning a real language does. Maybe it's invention was mostly a waste of time, and it will die out, like other odd hobbies.

But it's not an offence against other cultures that some people find it useful or interesting.

@VladmirsPoutine

Yes but if they're frowned on by the woke and not just the racist bigots then we have a problem!

I don't think Makaton is a form of cultural appropriation.

It's a different sign system. It's not really a full language. There are more than 300 sign languages used around the world and hundreds more sign systems.

You obviously believe that BSL is superior in all situations where Makaton is used. Fair enough, you are entitled to that opinion. However, Makaton has found a niche where it is used and useful. I don't see how having MORE ways of communicating can be a bad thing. It's not appropriating BSL or taking anything away from deaf people. It's just another way of communicating.

@beastlyslumber

How do you think makaton came about?

It has literaly taken something thar already existed and branded it for profit at a far lesser quality.

There is nothing in the makaton sign that has any advantage of the signs from BSL. Makaton in Britian has taken the signs from BSL. The symbols are different thing but I specifically talkin about the Signs.

Signs that have been copied from BSL but passed on incorrectly due yo lack of skill and understanding.

I used to work with people with learning disabilities and learned mackaton as part of that role.
I found it very useful and it was well used by the people we supported.
It isn't meant to be a stand alone language and I'm not sure I would have made much progress with a full standalone language.
The signs we had worked well for us, our clients weren't part of the deaf community and their signs worked well in their community for them.

Taking something and using it for something else also isn't appropriation. It might be effective or not, but that's how ideas work.

Look at Esperanto - a simplified version of European languages intended to create cultural exchange without the effort of learning a real language. Does it give the access to culture you'd get from learning French or Spanish? Not at all. And in fact it's now mostly used by odd hobbyists, so the idea it would facilitate interactions between people who would not have the time or ability to learn a whole new language has not really been realized.

But it's not some kind of denigration of the Romance languages. And a few people even seem to find it useful, which is great. People can still learn French or Spanish if they want to.

Culture is organic. It often borrows from other expressions, and repurposes things for totally different uses. It's never pure. The only cultures that don't do this are the ones that are long dead and forgotten.

Teaching signs without the skill and knowldge of both BSL and the history and culture of the language is appropriation.

Excellent!
So when the move to introduce BSL to the curriculum kicks off, I hope you insist loudly and vigorously that it’s taught by Deaf people with expertise in BSL.
Because what’s likely to happen is that it’ll be forced on non-expert bog standard teachers like me, armed with a few YouTube videos and a handy poster.
So far, I’ve had to teach French, Spanish and Latin armed with nothing but good intentions and pressure from SLT.
So I’m not sure BSL will fair any better.

@NovemberWitch

Yes it will need to be taught by those with the expertise. Wales are currently introducing it to curriculum and yes it has to be taught ny qualified people.
Same as to teach in school you have to be qualified

I don’t understand the whole cultural appropriation thing. I don’t. I’m Asian and as long as people are not taking the piss or being mean in their dress why should I care if someone wears a kimono? Many of my family in Japan make their living selling kimono and Yukata or montsuki and hakama to tourists. You’d be killing their business if westerners weren’t allowed to buy them.

@Covidworries

Maybe the chinese exanple was a bad one. Im not chinese so was more trying to answer the person asking if culture appropriation means they cant go to a chinese resturant. Which obv isnt the case.

I know about culture appropriation of BSL which is happening. So i will explain this specific appropriation again.

Learning BSL not culture appropriation
Using BSL bot culture appropriation
Posting videos that clearly state you are a learner for feedback to improve your skills not culture appropriation.
Ising BSL in your work as a interpreter or CSW is not culture appropriation (providing you have the relevent qualification yo do the job)

Teaching signs without the skill and knowldge of both BSL and the history and culture of the language is appropriation.

Selling sign language items when you are not fluent enough to check they are correct is culture appropriation (unless you are workign with a memeber of the BSL community and developing it with their support and guidence to ensure it is acurate).

Why do you need to know the culture to teach the language? If you have learned a language to a proficient enough level to speak it fluently, then you can teach it. That makes no sense to me. Fair enough if you don’t have the language proficiency, but that’s like saying to teach Spanish you have to have Spanish culture?

[quote Covidworries]@beastlyslumber

How do you think makaton came about?

It has literaly taken something thar already existed and branded it for profit at a far lesser quality.

There is nothing in the makaton sign that has any advantage of the signs from BSL. Makaton in Britian has taken the signs from BSL. The symbols are different thing but I specifically talkin about the Signs.

Signs that have been copied from BSL but passed on incorrectly due yo lack of skill and understanding.[/quote]
Okay. Let's agree to disagree as we're just going around in circles here.

Because the culture is integral to sign language

@Covidworries

Because the culture is integral to sign language

That’s true for any language.

Doesn’t stop the fact many people teaching a language know nothing about the culture
Or think they know when they don’t….

Are we saying that only people who have learnt a language as their mother tongue, have lived in the country many years can teach? There won’t be many people….