Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

Here is a different example.

If you require medical treatment in the UK and you dont know English an interpreter is called. If you are deaf BSL user this is also meant to happen but too often does not. A lovely lady i know died last yr because the hospital did not provide an interpreter and the extend of the problem wasnt know in time.
BSL uers continue to be oppressed and not provided with language in the same way as other non English or English users are.
Families of deaf children are discouraged from this language still. Those who choose BSL have to find and fund these courses them selves and are continually questioned on why they are using BSL. Despite the researched and acknowledged benefits and need for sign languages.
Meanwhile children born hearing (with and without other needs) are celebrated for learning to sign.
Baby sign, makaton, signalong, sign songs, sign for dementia etc etc is seen as amazing while the native language users are still oppressed.
Deaf led/fluent BSL users companies, courses and resources are pushed aside by items run by those with little to no understanding.
When these novices are challenged over these courses/materials other novices rush to their defense with comments like

They are amazing ive learnt so much
Why wouldnt you want people to learn sign
They are only trying to help
Deaf people/BSL users can set up if they want
Just be grateful someone is using sign
Thats different as the person is a baby/old/disabled etc so cant learn BSL

There are courses advertised on social media every day. Often these courses even have a lovely picture of someone doing a sign - a sign that isnt even a real sign for anything. The courses mislead participants in what that course is. Meaning too often people end up paying money for a cpurse which at best isnt recognised and at worst will teach wrong. This is not fair on authentic courses, it is not fair on BSL langauge users and it is not fair on the poor person who has speant time and money on it.

There are people posting videos 'teaching signs' which they have learnt from a book or google. There was a video last yr which was a mix of BSL, ASL and non signs. Lots of non signers raving about how brilliant it was and how much they had learnt. Poster with 1000s of likes etc.
When someone posts explaining the mistakes and with linls to genuine resources. They are jumped on by supporters. Private message politely explaining and with info on where they can learn are ignored.

Many people learn BSL and it is hoped it will soon be part of the curriculum. The issue isnt people learning/using BSL. The issue is people setting themselves up as an expert, producing a product which a already exists, that theirs is not just substandard but damaging to the language and culture.

Somepeople genuinely make mistakes and are approachable and willing to learn and either step back to promote the expert courses, services, product that already exists. Or of it is a genuinely new and useful concept they will work in collaboration with the language ecperts to ensure that the product is authentic and acurate.

Those who continue to ignore and do their own thing despite it being explained are appropriating.

@Lallybroch

I buy African print fabric from a couple who go out to Africa to buy the fabric. They can even show you a photograph of the woman who dyed and printed it. I feel by buying the fabric it supports the heritage and protects the income of those people involved. As someone who loves textiles in all shapes and colours I want to celebrate the skill of the artist who designed and make this fabric.As a woman (who happens to be white) I want to use this fabric to make myself a jacket but does this now mean I am culturally appropriating this fabric?

This is the kind of cultural appropriation that should be encouraged imo. Supporting a heritage industry and local craftswomen whilst making something new and different with the fabric. What’s not to like about this?

*This is the kind of cultural appropriation that should be encouraged imo. Supporting a heritage industry and local craftswomen whilst making something new and different with the fabric. What’s not to like about this?£

Because you just know that if Lallybroch did make her jacket and wore it out there would be a handful of offence takers who will not bother to maybe check the sourcing of the fabric they will just see a white women wearing an African print jacket and scream 'cultural appropriation'. They don't care about the fabric really, they just like the idea of adding another line in their protest credentials CV.

@CorianderAndCream

Dying and straightening our hair is not an important part of white culture. It's just fashion whereas braiding, locs etc are culturally significant to other cultures.

So you can't appropriate hair straightening because it has no meaning for us beyond style.

Or it’s just the best way to style that type of hair……

There is a real contradiction in wanting an oppressed group to be seen as equal, and not wanting their culture to be seen as interesting or compelling or to have cultural power.

👏👏👏

Among the younger generation it’s just styling though. I’ve seen white girls called out for braids but I’ve seen of black people with straight mohicans , for example, or in fact any hairstyle. It’s called fashion.

There is a real contradiction in wanting an oppressed group to be seen as equal, and not wanting their culture to be seen as interesting or compelling or to have cultural power.

Quite.

To me its not a contradiction through.

I want to be considered and treated equal, because i am.
I want people to see my culture which is beautiful and interesting and amazing. I want people to see us. I want people to learn about our culture and language in a way that is mutually beneficial.

What i do not want is people to misuse our culture and language to their own gain which further oppresses us and further removes our voice.

What i do not want is people to misuse our culture

What does this actually mean though?

If you're talking about using someone's culture to make fun of it, then yes everyone agrees with you. That's straightforward racism though, isn't it?

Or do you mean something else?

In terms of the financial gain point, again most issues I've seen that are problematic are mostly about the inherent inequalities of capitalism rather than anything else.

I think the more cultures are mixed the more cultural approtiation will go on. Its not just about clothes and appearance. We think nothing of going out for a curry or a Chinese. i think nothing of sending Eid gifts and presents to my neighbours. I've worn Asian clothes to Asian weddings and both me and DP speak enough Urdu to greet people - DP can even have a short conversation.

DD and DS both celebrate Eid and Dawaili with friends.

We don't think anything of it if people of other cultures wear Western dress or eat fish and chips - do we??

Dress how you like, celebrate what you like and eat what you like but always treat people with respect. We are fortunate enough to live in a society with so many options and opportunities so lets embrace it rather than keep putting barriers in our way all the time

Dress how you like, celebrate what you like and eat what you like but always treat people with respect.

Yes that gets to the heart of it

As a Swede.. I’ve never seen anyone mention the fact that Vikings braided their hair whenever the topic of white people braiding has come up unless it’s in an extremely disingenuous way.

Please keep the Vikings out of this and use your own ancestors to justify your cultural appropriation.

You aren’t copying Viking or Scandinavian braiding… people are copying the hairstyles of black women and this is about the specific styles of black women being copied. And anyone acting like “oh these are just viking braids” is a liar.

Dying and straightening our hair is not an important part of white culture

Hair styling is an important element in every culture

I can appreciate people asking about cultural appropriation, but it’s always a conversations that will go around in circles.

White people are always going to find a way to justify it, so I don’t even understand what any person of colour even has the patience to try to educate. I find it exhausting myself… if you all had the same energy to help improve things for WOC and improve racism as you did to be outraged that you can’t just steal things and demand no one use “Karen” or “cool girl” then intersectional feminism would be in a much better state. You’re extremely tiresome and I’m sure your “black friends” think so as well.

demand no one use “Karen” or “cool girl”

Usually people will react first (and more strongly?) to what impacts them directly. It's human nature.

In some circles the concepts of intersectionality, 'allies' etc maybe commonplace and part of an ideological construct, but most don't adhere to these IRL (though they may feel and express empathy obviously)

@MarshmallowSwede

I can appreciate people asking about cultural appropriation, but it’s always a conversations that will go around in circles.

White people are always going to find a way to justify it, so I don’t even understand what any person of colour even has the patience to try to educate. I find it exhausting myself… if you all had the same energy to help improve things for WOC and improve racism as you did to be outraged that you can’t just steal things and demand no one use “Karen” or “cool girl” then intersectional feminism would be in a much better state. You’re extremely tiresome and I’m sure your “black friends” think so as well.

This is exhausting.

Perhaps you should stop trying to ‘educate’ people.

I mostly see those braids in the context of MMA fighters, loads of whom are not even Westerners. This novel use makes sense to me, harder for your opponent to grab and keeps them out of your face/eyes.

@TheKeatingFive

I have explained and explained about the misuse of our language/culture many , many times with examples.

Going to a chinese meal to an authenyic chinese resturant not apropriation. Opening up a chinese resturant and pretending it authentic when you cant cook chinese food correctly is appropriation

@Covidworries, I can see what you mean.

But the reality is:

• it's impossible to cook exactely the way you would do it 'at home' in a another country just because the ingredients are all avaialable
• If you want to 'attract' customers from that country, you will probably also have to adjust the cooking to their tastes too.

So is that still an 'authentic' chinese restaurant?

eg there is a chinese restaurant I really like.
When I go there, the staff is NEVER proposing the little bowls to eat the rice with chopsticks whereas they always give them by default to the chinese looking customers.
There is a menu and it's also vey clear that they have a different 'menu' for the chinese people with things that are not on the 'normal' menu.... I am assuming they get the 'real proper' chinese food when we get the modified chinese food???
If a white person (who might well have lived in china, blablabla) opens a restaurant and delivers the meny esterners get, si that cultural appropriation seeing that its' not the traditional chinese food anyway? Rather it's what british people re ikely to expect and like from the vast choice that chinese food has to offer.

So many typos in that last part. I hope you can get what i mean

It also makes me wonder, can a white british person open a curry house?

Curries are coming from India but no one there eats curries the way they are here.
Curries have been part of the british diet for nearly 2 centuries (first curry house opened mid 1800 if I remember well).

So are they still ethnic foods that only indian/pakistan people can cook? Or are they now part of the british staple diet the same way than fish and chips?

[quote Covidworries]@TheKeatingFive

I have explained and explained about the misuse of our language/culture many , many times with examples.

Going to a chinese meal to an authenyic chinese resturant not apropriation. Opening up a chinese resturant and pretending it authentic when you cant cook chinese food correctly is appropriation[/quote]
Lololol

Chinese food in UK isn’t even authentic but has already been altered to suit local tastes. Also the very notion of ‘Chinese’ food is problematic by your standards, it’s like opening up a ‘European’ food resto.

You should also see what happens to Western food in other countries …. You should write angry letters to Japanese people for daring to make squid ink pizza and cod roe pasta 🤭😂

(….squid ink pizza is actually really good tho)

Opening up a chinese resturant and pretending it authentic when you cant cook chinese food correctly is appropriation

I'm honestly not trying to just nit pick for the sake of it, but I just find so much thinking on this topic very woolly.

What does authenticity mean in this case? I totally agree with all of the points raised by Tintin - does it have to be total authenticity in terms of all chefs, recipes, ingredients, cooking methods from the origin point? How local does that have to get, China is a big place? Is any deviation allowed? In what circumstances?

There are so many variations on what's an authentic recipe, even within very localised clusters of people. Just ask the Italians.

To take it to its logical conclusion, if a restaurant claims to be authentic Chinese and they mostly serve chips and chicken balls, they'll just get laughed at for their stupidity. I don't think this kind of 'appropriation' has any power at all.

Some POC say hair braiding is a problem, other POC say it isn't, so who is correct.

Whilst all this hand wringing and are we or are we not appropriating the culture of others goes on there are thousands and thousands of people in the originating countries living in poverty, barely managing to survive. But hey let's focus on important things whilst they quietly fer forgotten

@DingleyDell So you are actually saying that because black people are also braiding their hair white people have to stop braiding their hair? Stop a tradition that is more than a thousand years old? I am glad that you are pointing out that you are saying it to be woke because that could also sound extremely racist.

@ElvisPresleyHadABaby The Vikings didn't wear helmets with horns but quite frankly if someone did dress up in a helmet with horn, Viking-inspired braids, and blue contacts despite not being of Scandinavian heritage that would be a very rude form of cultural appropriation.

Eh, never mind. We are a peaceful people. We didn't throw legos after the Marvel corporation despite their weird interpretation of our ancient gods, so we'll let that one pass as well.

Maybe the chinese exanple was a bad one. Im not chinese so was more trying to answer the person asking if culture appropriation means they cant go to a chinese resturant. Which obv isnt the case.

I know about culture appropriation of BSL which is happening. So i will explain this specific appropriation again.

Learning BSL not culture appropriation
Using BSL bot culture appropriation
Posting videos that clearly state you are a learner for feedback to improve your skills not culture appropriation.
Ising BSL in your work as a interpreter or CSW is not culture appropriation (providing you have the relevent qualification yo do the job)

Teaching signs without the skill and knowldge of both BSL and the history and culture of the language is appropriation.

Selling sign language items when you are not fluent enough to check they are correct is culture appropriation (unless you are workign with a memeber of the BSL community and developing it with their support and guidence to ensure it is acurate).