Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

Trouble is the damage to those cultures and languages has already be done.
How often do we see comments like why learn x its a dead language. Why are the signs in wales in welsh everyone who speaks welsh can speak english too. Its just them being awkward.

I wouldnt want my child learning x y z.

Theres no point to sign language anymore be ause tech has improved and we can write it down etc etc.

Its still about what is easiest for English language users

I think perhaps what you need to realise, is it's not necessarily about the present, the past has caused a lot of hurt and anger, that saying 'it's all in the past', does nothing to address. Acknowledging and accepting the wounds of the past is possibly more constructive, although definitely more difficult.

Also, it's not as to whether an individual, whether past or present, benefitted, the dominant cultures as a whole benefitted from the raw materials, the land, the minerals, the plantations, and the people.

So I get that those who were 'down the mines' or worse, (I actually come from that lot myself, a lot of miners in my lot, and they emigrated out to NZ and found themselves doing 'the same shit, different bucket'!) may find it hard to swallow that they are collectively seen as part of the dominant beneficiaries of the exploitation of the colonies and particularly the disenfranchised indigenous peoples.

Also, the value I see, is the respect shown in listening, and having a dialogue. To dismiss it as merely 'hair braiding', is to once again dismiss concerns and values.

Have any people , wearing clothing or hair styles (in a not offensive way) been abused by those who feel ownership of said clothing/hair?

To dismiss it as merely 'hair braiding', is to once again dismiss concerns

But hair braiding is one of the issues that people who want to talk about cultural appropriation choose to centre the debate around.

I totally agree with you that it is nonsense. I totally agree with you that what we need to address is the hurt of historical racism.

Focusing on who gets to engage with cultural practices that no one culture can ever be said to own is unhelpful distraction from that.

@IsleofRum, I would hazard a guess that the answer is very little. From what I can see, it really isn't aimed at Josephine Bloggs walking down the road with a hijab/crucifix/braids/wax print skirt. It's aimed more at a higher level, where serious influence is exerted by those in power and where big money is being made.

Named ‘cornrows’ to depict the rows of corn/cotton, etc across the plantation fields.
Black people were enslaved, beaten and forced to work on the plantation fields.

360 posts in and posters are STILL arguing around cultural appropriation when all the POC on this thread have said they have no issue with white people wearing their ‘traditional’ clothes, braiding their hair etc…

I’m wondering when posters are going to even acknowledge those POC posters tbh.
Because ignoring their input because somehow it doesn’t fit your idea of what is right or wrong smacks of racism to me.

@TintinIsBack

They’re not ready; they do not want to hear it.

To be fair - some POC have mentioned it is a problem - or there are specific problems.

In general I’m fine with people wearing things and cooking food from my culture - provided not in a mocking way. But some of my relatives are more touchy. some people are offended and some aren’t. A lot of it depends on context and no hard and fast ‘rules’. If you’re worried for a particular occasion, people aren’t going to mind if you have a chat with some people and find out their feelings. It’s not going to guarantee it won’t offend anyone, but it’s making an effort and a nice way of learning.

Perhaps POC can also feel ok with questioning why someone has chosen to wear something (without the wearer feeling offended/attacked). Sometimes the answer might be interesting and surprising. So sad the story of the lady who was given a jade bracelet by her Chinese grandmother but doesn’t wear it - most people would say she should wear it.

The hairstyle itself originated in Africa long before slavery. Like most things, it holds different meanings in the African continent and the American or European continent.

It had/has a name in the country that it's from and across other African countries.

It got it's popular name during the time of slavery in reference to corn fields - 'corn rows' or sugar cane fields - 'cane rows' (Caribbean).

I confess I didn't rtft, at 15 pages I often read the first and last two or three. Do all POC announce themselves?
@Covidworries, you might be interested to know that English was pretty much a banned, or abandoned, language at one time. It came back, after Norman occupation, greatly changed from Old English / Anglo-Saxon. My belief is that the changes helped to give it the power and flexibility it has today. Good luck to the Welsh, etc, as long as their objection really is to the systems of imperialism rather than just to being one of the disadvantaged people within it.

I can never see cultural appropriation without thinking about a thread here that went on forever about a Tiger Lily costume worn on World Book Day.

@TintinIsBack

And people still arent understanding what cultural appropriation is. That there is wearing items, using a minority cultures language or technique etc with respect and understanding or a willingness to learn about that culture all of which is gererally appriciated and accepted

OR
There is cutural appropriation where the minority group views are ignored and people gain financially or in other ways through ise of an aspect of that culture which they do disrespectfully and without a care for that culture.

Patenting or profiteering done by somebody not belonging to a culture/place does seem wrong.

e.g. the Patagonia brand registered and owned by an American rather than a Chilean?

when a person from a non oppressed group takes an aspect of a culture from a group that has been oppressed and used this for personal gain (money or status) then that is culture appropriation

The 'oppressed' angle should be taken out of this IMO. A non-oppressed group can also object to something 'belonging' to them being misappropriated, if we follow this rationale.

FWIW, I've never heard a white UK person expressing a desire to wear cornrows or wear African wax prints (as per the OP) - or seen one, for that matter. Everyone tends to wear a style largely in keeping with their own heritage. So this seems to be a non-issue IRL in the UK, perhaps a problem confined to social media and celebrities looking for a bit of publicity

I buy African print fabric from a couple who go out to Africa to buy the fabric. They can even show you a photograph of the woman who dyed and printed it. I feel by buying the fabric it supports the heritage and protects the income of those people involved. As someone who loves textiles in all shapes and colours I want to celebrate the skill of the artist who designed and make this fabric.As a woman (who happens to be white) I want to use this fabric to make myself a jacket but does this now mean I am culturally appropriating this fabric?

The whole idea of cultural appropriation comes out of a misunderstanding of culture and the possibility of "owning" ideas. It's an impossible set of constructs as you see when you look at the kinds of idiotic things people start to claim as cultural artifacts, or the situations it happens in. Think about the logical conclusions - how many of our arts have been enriched by influences from other cultures? How many pure cuisines are there? How do people imagine we can stop being influenced by the things we see and hear around us?

There is a small group of practices or things that have current status as sacred in a living culture, and where it's probably best to avoid using them casually. "Sacred" not being the same as culturally important. That's a recognition of and respect for the nature of the sacred that most human societies share to some degree, not a statement about ownership of culture. And in many cases those cultures don't mind, at all, if people from other cultures also begin to treat them as sacred. objects or practices, so it's not always about some sort of ethnic membership.

@Lallybroch

I buy African print fabric from a couple who go out to Africa to buy the fabric. They can even show you a photograph of the woman who dyed and printed it. I feel by buying the fabric it supports the heritage and protects the income of those people involved. As someone who loves textiles in all shapes and colours I want to celebrate the skill of the artist who designed and make this fabric.As a woman (who happens to be white) I want to use this fabric to make myself a jacket but does this now mean I am culturally appropriating this fabric?

My sister was given a very beautiful sari as a gift when she was in India. The gift giver, an Indian women, absolutely intended her to wear it. However, she can't, as in her professional life it would be tagged as appropriation, by people with no connection to the gift-giver.

So yes, probably some people would say it was appropriation, the question really is whether you should believe them.

[quote Covidworries]@Carnayshun
This is always the responce discussions about cultural appropriation get.

Supporting black led buisnesses is not cultural appropriation. Appropriation is setting up a white led buisness selling a black cultural product at substandard quality and therefore causing quality black led provision to flounder just because you can[/quote]
That's not appropriation, it's capitalism.

Or is it ok to undercut a white business with an inferior product causing their quality provision to flounder?

It's very interesting how much of this comes down to intellectual property, copyright, and patent questions. But they are in themselves invented, and for very good reason very limited, constructs.

However, Maori get pretty bloody incandescent with people who have absolutely no concept of the meaning and mana of ta moko, going about ripping them off, whether it be as a second rate tattoo done by someone with equally no concept, or whacking the designs on their t-shirts for profit. That is appropriation

I get the impression that some expect certain cultures to be respected more than others.

Would an Italian national be offended because a British national opened a pasta place and served spaghetti with the wrong type of sauce? Would this cause the same outrage as the Maori example? If not, why? All cultures should be respected equally

@mbosnz

Interesting point PickUpAPepper. The Maori language almost died out, due to children being beaten if they used it in schools, their parents being taught that the way of the future was English, so discouraging their children from speaking it at home.

That is the difference between a dominant culture, which takes what it wants, and has little or no respect or care for other cultures, and a non-dominant culture, which is supposed to sit down, put up, and shut up - and of course be terribly flattered if the dominant culture decides that something of its culture is sufficiently worthy that they wish to appropriate it.

There is no such thing as a pure language, and there are always losers/non-dominant cultures in the mix.

That's how language works and that is also how culture works.

Any time a group moves from being seen as somehow lesser, and becomes more accepted, powerful, etc, it will begin to spread its culture to other groups around it quickly. Because it is beginning to influence the shared cultural space.

There is a real contradiction in wanting an oppressed group to be seen as equal, and not wanting their culture to be seen as interesting or compelling or to have cultural power.

[quote Covidworries]@PickUpAPepper

Well they could but would you be able to understand them?

Also English language users havent been punished or had their language banned to my knowledge. Many other languages have been oppressed by English so sadly English has actually been forced on a lot of us[/quote]
English is a mish-mash of languages, many brought by conquering forces who were imposed their regime on the earlier inhabitants, and ultimately changed their language. Pure language, pure culture, and pure DNA are ideas that properly belong to eugenics apologists, and it's very puzzling that they have gained so much force in the last twenty years.

Dying and straightening our hair is not an important part of white culture. It's just fashion whereas braiding, locs etc are culturally significant to other cultures.

So you can't appropriate hair straightening because it has no meaning for us beyond style.

@LobsterNapkin

There is a real contradiction in wanting an oppressed group to be seen as equal, and not wanting their culture to be seen as interesting or compelling or to have cultural power.

This sums it up perfectly.

@CorianderAndCream

Dying and straightening our hair is not an important part of white culture. It's just fashion whereas braiding, locs etc are culturally significant to other cultures.

So you can't appropriate hair straightening because it has no meaning for us beyond style.

Are you sure that we don't? I think that's untrue, there is some real cultural significance around hair in English culrure, as well as other European cultures. Women putting their hair up at a certain age, women having their hair shaved as a way to shame, men joining the military, or the tonsure, wearing long hair in the 60s as a sign of rebellion. All of these are associated with certain hairstyles that have been common and there are some specific European examples too. We also have certain styles associated with European hair customs, from the chignon to ratting.

And what do you mean by "culturally significant" here? I am positive that many cultures that use braiding don't have some sense of it being special beyond what I've described above. They might have different traditions, and ones that reflected hair type and available resources, and their particular history.

But in neither case does that make it inappropriate to have a cultural transfer.