Cultural appropriation...how bad is it?

[malificent7]

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?
I love african wax print fabric but don't want to be accused of cultural appropriation if i wear a bit of it. I also own sari fabric clothes.

Aibu to ask mn who may or may not be from different ethnic backgrounds would they consider Rhianna or my behaviour inappropriate and what constitutes real cultural appropriation?

This is not a racist thread as dd is mixed race.

What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?

This is a redundant argument because for centuries Black women have been told their natural hair is untidy, unprofessional and ugly thus have been conditioned to relax it with perms, straighten it etc from an early age. White women haven't faced such criticism about their hair. A lot of Black women wear wigs, weaves and do all manner of other things to 'tame' their natural hair.

Rihanna isn't the first and the Kardashians basically make their living out of pulling stunts like this.

@YourFinestPantaloons

So Rhianna is under fire for braiding white model's hair. What if a black model wanted to straighten and bleach her hair?

From what I understand (I am not a WOC but my DC are mixed race so I do try and keep abreast of things like cultural appropriation) - the oppressors (in this case, white people) should not appropriate the oppressed (in this case, POC) because it just perpetuates and increases the oppression issue. Whereas there will be no real harm when done the other way round. Also, blond hair is not a key part of a culture. most white women with blonde hair have that colour because they've dyed it

But there’s harm when done the other way round as well. Traditional cultures are losing their identifying markers, skills, arts, languages, and defining characteristics as they adopt a mishmash of stuff from cultures not their own.

There are black-owned British companies who sell African wax print fabric clothes. They’d be screwed if only black women bought their clothes because their market would only be 1-2% of the population. And if you exclude black women not of African heritage their market would be even smaller! They’re happy to sell their clothes to white women and frequently post photos of white women wearing their clothes. So I don’t think cultural appropriation is an issue here. Especially because the fabric is manufactured in the Netherlands in the first place before it’s shipped to Africa!

OP, the fact that you even had to justify your point by adding that you daughter is mixed race says a lot. It is telling off how crazy the woke mob are. And to be honest it’s not even minority communities who complain about their cultural aspects being adopted by others, their is actually some pride in other people adopting them. It’s actually white savior syndrome which perpetuates these ridiculous notions such as cultural appropriation. Absolute madness.

@NovemberWitch

Are you a spokesperson for traditional cultures? If so, which ones?

Couldn’t you use the same argument and say it’s offensive by those that wear massive crucifixes as a fashion statement even though they’re not practising Christians? Surely that’s appropriation too?

I was brought up with the expression, “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery” Maybe the fact that styles are copied by all cultures is a positive thing?
I have no dog in this fight, just interested in where the line could be drawn.

Most accusations of "cultural appropriation" are basically total bollocks. Its really not a thing in normal life. My white English mother used to wear a sari when she visited my Indian father's relatives. Thats not CA.

Cultural Appropriation is a nasty woke version of 'stay in your lane'.

I don't think that Africa is the only origin of braiding hair.

@Loveshelly

Is it the same as an English person wearing clan tartan. Because i have done that and not thought twice about it

I've worn lots of things in my 73 years that I'm sure could be said to be from other cultures and I couldn't care less! In no instance has there been any form of 'mockery' but I'm sure that the forensic offence seekers would find something! Tough.

I can't get mad at someone wearing braids. Surely that's appreciation? As for African wax fabric as long as it's bought from an African tailor I don't see the problem.

Would anyone like to buy a MN 'is this racist?' bingo card from me?

Squares include:

Woke
They shouldn't be so sensitive
They shouldn't be so ungrateful
My friend is black and says it's fine
Whataboutery
White people are victims of racism too

A reminder that if you think having a mixed race child means you are automatically not racist, or that if you think ethnic minorities asking for some respect is being 'woke'...

You have some problems.

@Funnylittlefloozie

Most accusations of "cultural appropriation" are basically total bollocks. Its really not a thing in normal life. My white English mother used to wear a sari when she visited my Indian father's relatives. Thats not CA.

Cultural Appropriation is a nasty woke version of 'stay in your lane'.

What a very wise comment - absolutely spot on.

If we go down the road of, ‘white people can only wear this, POC can only dress this way’ we have done a full circle and returned to the dreadful days of segregation/apartheid.

@Funnylittlefloozie your example is clearly not cultural appropriation. This whole thread is full of people who can't understand the difference between appreciation and appropriation and seem to want to be indignant about it.

It depends on the context. If unsure, best to check. In some cases (eg weddings), it is encouraged for people not of that culture to wear the culture’s traditional dress - but it might not be like that for all people in a minority culture - I’m sure people wouldn’t mind being asked if it is appropriate. I don’t get offended unless someone is intentionally making fun of my culture, but I know relatives who are more touchy.

I think that its gone a bit far, I don't see why Chinese people can't sell bubble tea:

www.reddit.com/r/PublicFreakout/comments/pt1tix/black_woman_accuses_a_bubble_tea_shop_of_stealing/?utm_medium=android_app&utm_source=share

@2389Champ yes, I think using a crucifix as a meaningless fashion accessory would be appropriation. Cultural appropriation is all about co opting symbols, styles and practices to appear fashionable or knowledgeable without actually paying respect to the appropriate communities.

@YourFinestPantaloons

I'm also very much in the "just fucking listen" camp. If POC en masse are telling us cultural appropriation is damaging, how about we listen to them? Would that be so hard?

Completely agree.

It's very nuanced, the most we can do is listen. There was a big falling out at DD's school when a white girl in her year got her hair done in cornrows and an extremely dark tan, along with using vernacular most commonly spoken by black and mixed race communities. It was pretty outrageous, but many couldn't see what was wrong with it.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Would anyone like to buy a MN 'is this racist?' bingo card from me?

Squares include:

Woke
They shouldn't be so sensitive
They shouldn't be so ungrateful
My friend is black and says it's fine
Whataboutery
White people are victims of racism too

Before I buy, could I just check that mentioning mixed race family members would come under "my friend is black and says it's fine"?

Where do you draw the line though?

Is it ok to 'appropriate' some cultures, but not others?

How about men in drag or using Chinese characters as tattoos if you aren't Chinese? Or making Pizza if you aren't Italian?

Culture also changes and evolves over time. At what point does adopting 'old culture' become cultural appropriation by 'new' generations? Do the rules change if cultures merge?

But braided hair and cornrows have been used by white people in Europe for more than a thousand years. Vikings did it. Why is it suddenly a black thing? Because people are uneducated and know nothing about history! That's why.
But of course I am not allowed to have an opinion about this as this is Mumsnet where I was previously told I couldn't possibly have been the victim of racism as I am white. The small detail that the people who called me the N-word obviously didn't see me as white doesn't matter in the competition about being most woke. Newsflash: It is not woke to tell people who have experienced racism that it couldn't possibly have happened because they "don't qualify".

@ElvisPresleyHadABaby good point, that is a separate square.

I would like to add the following squares:

I think [X] and I can't be racist because one or more of my relatives is a POC.
Racism doesn't exist.
Only white people complain about cultural appropriation.

@YourFinestPantaloons

I'm also very much in the "just fucking listen" camp. If POC en masse are telling us cultural appropriation is damaging, how about we listen to them? Would that be so hard?

But it’s not a uniform message is it? Some POC have no issue and some do.

I’m not sure that this isn’t creating further divides in cultures that are merging. I’m all for making sure that the histories behind hairstyles, dress, music and foods are part of a wider education but I’m not comfortable with the notion that people shouldn’t employ use of them for themselves because that’s the only way to preserve those histories and significance. I should think the opposite would be true.

And yet when white women adopt characteristics and style from other cultures (without the due acknowledgement) they are seen as the originators of those styles and seen as attractive. Its like our cultures are attractive but only if whitewashed. That's why it's a problem.

What kind of acknowledgement is needed?
If I wore a shalwar kameez (something I'd love to do) I wouldn't be an originator, I'm just showing I love the style. Why is that saying your culture should be whitewashed?

I can see that some are saying this is cultural appreciation (if I have interpreted correctly) but I am that fearful of being accused of cultural appropriation that I would not currently dare to wear anything that was obviously of a different culture.

But it’s not a uniform message is it? Some POC have no issue and some do.

Presumably that's because black culture is not one big mass of people.

Black people from African countries will differ from black people from Caribbean countries and black people living in predominantly white countries like you UK. Even when you take Africa, there will be massive differences depending on tribe and geography etc