To not understand why voters aren't angry about all the lies Tories and Brexiteers told them and the resulting mess they've created?

[Kendodd]

Voters still seem to love them and are absolutely welded to their vote despite the evidence all around them that they were lied to.
I would be absolutely furious with them if their lies had persuaded me to vote Leave and Tory.

Yanbu - I would be angry as well
Yabu - everything else

Brexit could have been a success but the government has cocked it up at every opportunity. Labour should be focussing on that rather than Brexit itself.

Whitefire
....are both saying that it is specifically Brexit that is limiting the options for solutions.

I think this is the crux of the issue, so whilst Brexit may not have caused the difficulties, it is making them harder to resolve.

The solution is very simple.

Pay drivers what they are worth, treat them with respect and put in decent services that will not only serve good food, have showers/toilets and security that prevents them from being attacked from those that wish to steel from the back of the wagons.

But its easier and cheaper to get EU drivers that have fewer costs, two people in the cab and don't stop.

But then this is an issue that predates brexit but its easier just to blame brexit.

Brexit could have been a success but the government has cocked it up at every opportunity. Labour should be focussing on that rather than Brexit itself.

It was a stupid idea and was always going to have a crap outcome. But the Tories have mismanaged it and made everything worse, largely because the cabinet is full of buffoons chosen to make the PM look good in comparison.

If I’d voted for the kind of Brexit sold to voters during the Referendum campaign I’d be furious now, but the Leave voters see it as nothing, Corbyn’s beard will have got them more raging. Like you OP I don’t get it, what’s frustrating is that whilst people are engaging in whataboutery, blaming the general public for supply issues and giving politicians get outs for lying nothing will change.

It’s enough to make your head explode.

@Kendodd

FFS give it up about Brexit.

Why?
We will be living with the consequences for decades, why shouldn't we talk about it?

You're not talking about it though are you?

You're whining about it.

Continually....

@FrippEnos

Whitefire ....are both saying that it is specifically Brexit that is limiting the options for solutions.

I think this is the crux of the issue, so whilst Brexit may not have caused the difficulties, it is making them harder to resolve.

The solution is very simple.

Pay drivers what they are worth, treat them with respect and put in decent services that will not only serve good food, have showers/toilets and security that prevents them from being attacked from those that wish to steel from the back of the wagons.

But its easier and cheaper to get EU drivers that have fewer costs, two people in the cab and don't stop.

But then this is an issue that predates brexit but its easier just to blame brexit.

Spot on!

BP and the other companies want their slave labour back, rather than paying the existing drivers a decent wage.

I think people just don't like having to admit that they made a mistake so it's easier to pretend that they're happy with how things are panning out. It's hard to see exactly what they're happy about, but at least if they continue to assert that everything is fine, nobody can say "I told you so".

Never underestimate how incredibly invested people are in not admitting that they screwed up.

@Kendodd

What do you hope to gain out of these repeated threads OP? You keep asking why people vote Conservative and whether they should feel angry and betrayed and lied to or not and keep getting the same answers. Do you hope to change peoples minds? Get a new perspective you haven’t heard before?

Because honestly, every day I grow more and more astonished by the shit you'll put up with and even defend. Really, it's just unbelievable. And as for changing anyones mind, the scales feel from my eyes a long time ago on that, there is NOTHING that will change Brexit voters minds and it's this that I really don't understand. The DUP are the best example of this.

Don't you get it?

As a Tory voter, I have a rough idea of the sort of shit I'll have to put up with from a Tory Government - and it's weighted in my favour.

If we had a Labour Government, there would be a whole different level of shit to put up with, but it wouldn't suit me as well.

So I vote for the people who will give me shit I can survive.

And until there's a credible opposition party offering a whole new raft of shit that benefits more people (or even no shit) that's the way it's going to be....

BP and the other companies want their slave labour back, rather than paying the existing drivers a decent wage.

This is such a ridiculous thing to say. They haven’t got enough existing drivers. They could pay them £100k a year and it wouldn’t make any difference. You can’t solve a skills shortage overnight by throwing money at it.

“Nope. You wanted the Europeans to go”

Well you got that wrong!

Because it’s not just about Brexit and hardly anyone will post if it’s there. I never go near the Brexit or Covid boards, they’re loon magnets

KenDodd how do you feel about your favourite board, the Brexit board, being described as a ‘loon magnet’?

Nope it is you who don't get it Newrumpus.

Even the most dim witted can distinguish between things being conveniently blamed on something and direct consequence. But what exactly is your point? All of the organisations working at the coalface of transport have contradicted Grant Shapps and said that Brexit has had a massively negative impact on the logistics governing the supply chain? Are you denying that?

You say political will can overcome supply chain difficulties but it will take more time, money and have a greater environmental impact than if we had stayed in the single market. It will be the consumer who ends up paying. Is it better in terms of food standards and the environment to import a chicken from Thailand or from the Netherlands? Which is more costly in terms of transport?

No doubt you will answer these questions in a nebulous non-specific way!

@FrippEnos

Whitefire ....are both saying that it is specifically Brexit that is limiting the options for solutions.

I think this is the crux of the issue, so whilst Brexit may not have caused the difficulties, it is making them harder to resolve.

The solution is very simple.

Pay drivers what they are worth, treat them with respect and put in decent services that will not only serve good food, have showers/toilets and security that prevents them from being attacked from those that wish to steel from the back of the wagons.

But its easier and cheaper to get EU drivers that have fewer costs, two people in the cab and don't stop.

But then this is an issue that predates brexit but its easier just to blame brexit.

This right here. A lot of the working class who voted for Brexit knew that they would be poorer. They still did it because it was their wages which had been decimated for years by the over supply of cheap labour from the EU.

Blair achieved what his donor class wanted in the early 2000s, allowing unscrupulous employers to reduce working standards and rights. It was a political decision to allow unlimited migration (cheaper than training new staff and additionally had the effect of keeping the A6 countries out if the influence of Russia.)

P.s a lot of EU drivers are not returning solely because of Brexit, quality of life and wages have increased so much in their "home" countries they no longer want or need to work in the UK.

The solution is very simple.

Pay drivers what they are worth, treat them with respect and put in decent services that will not only serve good food, have showers/toilets and security that prevents them from being attacked from those that wish to steel from the back of the wagons.

But its easier and cheaper to get EU drivers that have fewer costs, two people in the cab and don't stop.

Lorry drivers working conditions definitely need improving but it is the EU that is introducing new rules regulating better enforcement of cabotage rules, posting of drivers and drivers’ rest times. The difficulty to date has been that individual EU nations implemented these regulations differently.

@Papershuffle

Nope it is you who don't get it Newrumpus.

Even the most dim witted can distinguish between things being conveniently blamed on something and direct consequence. But what exactly is your point? All of the organisations working at the coalface of transport have contradicted Grant Shapps and said that Brexit has had a massively negative impact on the logistics governing the supply chain? Are you denying that?

You say political will can overcome supply chain difficulties but it will take more time, money and have a greater environmental impact than if we had stayed in the single market. It will be the consumer who ends up paying. Is it better in terms of food standards and the environment to import a chicken from Thailand or from the Netherlands? Which is more costly in terms of transport?

No doubt you will answer these questions in a nebulous non-specific way!

Ahhh. So you are moving the goalposts. As you indicate, there are ways around the issues. We, make the decisions, we cause social things to happen - they are not inevitable.

Ahhh. So you are moving the goalposts. As you indicate, there are ways around the issues. We, make the decisions, we cause social things to happen - they are not inevitable.

Yep! As predicted, another nebulous answer from *Newrumpus

And I haven't moved the goal posts at all. I have responded directly to points made in your previous posts. You have again failed miserably to respond to factual questions.

“factual questions“

C’mon

Keep on goading Newrumpus ! Because you are incapable of engaging seriously in any other way!

I have engaged and responded without name-calling. I know you don’t like my points but have implied that I am right upthread by trying to anticipate potential solutions yourself.

I thought the Brexit topic was created specifically for people to go and wine about Brexit/no Brexit.

Truth is that if there was actually credible opposition then perhaps we wouldn’t be in this mess.

Perhaps if there was another party worth voting for none of this would have happened.

Or maybe, actually, it would have.

I love how people state that if only the Tories weren’t in power x and y wouldn’t be happening. But given that no-one has any credible other suggestions as to how their particular political party would do things it’s not really a realistic answer is it?

Fact is that in order to be a politician you have to lack integrity. Every, single, politician is a liar, without exception.

Look at Afghanistan. If labour hadn’t gone in in the first place then maybe it wouldn’t be in the position it’s in now.

We should never have gone in there, but Labour did, and now the tories are being blamed for how it’s turned out.

Until a party actually emerges with answers to all these issues there isn’t really a debate to be had, because there isn’t an alternative answer.

@HeartsAndClubs
I literally don’t know anyone that’s blaming the tories for going in to Afghanistan

Also, nothing would be different, the Americans were hell bent on going in.

@Newrumpus

I have engaged and responded without name-calling. I know you don’t like my points but have implied that I am right upthread by trying to anticipate potential solutions yourself.

2/10 !

[quote Limejuiceandrum]@HeartsAndClubs
I literally don’t know anyone that’s blaming the tories for going in to Afghanistan

Also, nothing would be different, the Americans were hell bent on going in.[/quote]
This. It was the only way to get some control over terrorism post 9/11. The withdrawal debacle was Biden’s decision.

I'm furious too. It's an absolute shambles. No forward planning at all.

I was a strong Remainer. I was angry for a very long time. I protested. I signed petitions. I posted things. I donated money.

But I’m done now. I have gone all the way done the change curve and am now at acceptance. I can’t change it so all I can do is figure out how to limit its impact on my family.

It has been five years. My son was three when the vote happened. He is eight now. I don’t want to waste his childhood being angry about something I can’t change.