To feel I have utterly let down my children by sending then to a state school?

[hibbledibble]

I went to a private school, and achieved very well academically.

My children go to a state school, as I can't afford private school. I will never be able to afford it sadly. They go to the local community school, which has a reputation for not being academic.

My eldest is extremely bright, and tested many years ahead of her age on entering the local primary. Now, she has failed to even get to the second round of the 11+. She has really just coasted at school, as they have not set any appropriate work for her, despite multiple requests. They say they can't offer 'gifted and talented' provision, due to funding.

Her sibling is very behind on learning, as she missed loads of school due to lockdowns, and the school offered very little remote provision throughout most of the time. I have asked for support for her, but am told that nothing is available, again, due to funding. Meanwhile, she is struggling with even the basics.

I do think that both of my children would have done better, had they gone to a school where their individual abilities and learning stage was catered for, and they were helped to achieve their potential. I feel I have let them down by not providing them with a good education, which they could have had if I had the money.

Now it's looking likely my eldest will have to go to the terrible, and rough, local secondary, and the underachieving will continue.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

The truth is that there are some really crap schools out there, which do not help children reach their potential and in some cases will destroy all their confidence and motivation. And it is very much a postcode lottery

Well that might all be true, but what I don't understand is why the OP feels that her children have a better right than any other local children to a place in a school that isn't the "terrible, and rough, local secondary" and why she thinks it is the primary school's job to make sure that her children don't have to go there.

Yes I think that is a mistake that was made, where she did not realise that the primary is by definition happy to feed into this secondary and does not share her values. There is a fiction amongst our local primaries that all their local high schools are good -- why would there not be, they would not want to distress parents. But it can be pernicious how state primaries feel about 11+. We had one teacher in one of my son's year 5 whose own child had not got through the 11+ for example and she made it a particular job of hers to put down the parents in her class who were going for that, and also marked their children down. One parent even got her disciplined for changing the mark down.
But I think OP's values are about her child's happiness and fulfilment, not her child's "rights". Every parent/child has the right to choose school, but in some catchments this right is not actually available in practice, particularly in London. Parents who would want a genuine choice but have not got wise to this by the infant stage, are on the back foot. Things move very fast in London and if you don't have the opportunity to be by the school gate every day because of work etc, you miss out on the gossip that tells you what the real secondary options for children are. You just look at the local authority website, which pretends there is a choice.

theendoftheworldisnigh

I think OP said her eldest had just failed the 11+ so getting into a grammar school is going to be hard, even if places come up. It’s also questionable whether she would cope with joining a grammar school at 12 or 13 if she has fallen badly behind and lost her confidence.

As for waiting lists for better schools...maybe she has put them on some WLs, I don’t know. But it is not the easy to find better schools mid pandemic - they have not been welcoming in prospective parents in for open days.

But more likely, until now OP has been doing what MNers are always advising people to do - trust the school, they are professionals, they know what they are doing. But there comes a point when you realise that you were wrong to trust the school. OP has suddenly realised this because one daughter has not fulfilled her apparent potential and has just failed the 11+, and the other one is not being supported to catch up post pandemic.

You may argue that this should not have come as a surprise but that’s the benefit of hindsight - and of not walking in other people’s shoes. I thought I had read that OP was an SP, but frankly it makes not all that much difference and is none of
our business anyway. This pandemic has been bloody difficult for ALL working mothers let alone those doing long hours on the frontline of the NHS while looking after primary schoolchildren. She’s done miracles to keep her family alive and healthy but like many of us she still feels guilty she hasn’t done enough. What she doesn’t need is a pile-on from popcorn eaters with 20/20 hindsight saying coulda woulda shoulda.

Everyone knows the 11plus is competitive. That's why the system is unfair, the wealthy tutor their children heavily from about year 2 to ensure they have the best chance at getting in. Meanwhile Bobby whose mum works nights for minimum wage and doesn't understand the system hasn't got a
hope of getting in unless he is a child prodigy or his primary teachers take a very special interest. It's very wrong and all of our children, including those
living on sink estates should be receiving the very best of educations. It shouldn't be like this but class sizes are too big in state primaries and the whole thing is about sat scores for the league table not a cultured education. Schools with more disadvantaged intakes should have smaller class sizes as the norm.

I don't live in an 11 plus area and we went private for secondary anyway. You are very naive. Despite being top set in my city's consistently highest ranked primary (intake akin to private - mainly doctors and lawyers and over half go independent by year 7) I tutored my daughter heavily from year 5 as did everyone else I know, including friends whose children were at prep. Had we
been going for a grammar school this would have been even more intense as the prize is coveted! The reality is that your children are up against children like mine, - and I'm not as confident for my younger child who will be examined this year so he has been having even more tuition.

School teaches the curriculum but a lot of learning goes on in the home at primary level. I was privately educated from infant school but my parents didn't know to do much with me whereas I remember my friends having to do endless writing practise and spelling practise. I was naturally bright so just left to get on with it mainly but I would have achieved more if I had been pushed at home too.

If your daughter is as intelligent as you think she would probably benefit from tuition now prior to secondary. She is still young enough to catch up quick.

Just read your update. Has your daughter been assessed for eg adhd. Girls mask particularly when bright but it makes it hard for them to progress at school.

@AmaryllisNightAndDay

The truth is that there are some really crap schools out there, which do not help children reach their potential and in some cases will destroy all their confidence and motivation. And it is very much a postcode lottery

Well that might all be true, but what I don't understand is why the OP feels that her children have a better right than any other local children to a place in a school that isn't the "terrible, and rough, local secondary" and why she thinks it is the primary school's job to make sure that her children don't have to go there.

It is every school’s job to help children achieve their full potential. If the primary school has fallen well short on that then the OP is right to be disappointed.

OP has said nothing about “rights”. But while
we are on the subject, please name me a MNer who has ever said “I have no preference where my child goes, I’m totally happy with whichever secondary the computer allocates him/her.”

please name me a MNer who has ever said “I have no preference where my child goes, I’m totally happy with whichever secondary the computer allocates him/her.”

Very few.

But most people pull out the stops to ensure they get the best school possible. The OP hasn’t done that really.

Loads of my friends are junior doctors with 8/9/10/11 year olds. What a twatty comment to disbelieve her. I'm a lawyer and I didn't wait until my 40's to start a family and neither did anyone I know without fertility issues. The norm in my circle is first baby around 30 second around 32 back to work full time or 4 days depending on speciality. Doctors often complete their training part time and then need to fight it out for an appropriate post. A friend of mine recently became a consultant at 50.

But most people pull out the stops to ensure they get the best school possible. The OP hasn’t done that really. I would say the OP possibly has done that already but on the assumption that her DDs would be of super-selective grammar school standard. However, plans have gone pear-shaped because her DD didn't pass the 11+.

I am sure there are potentially some other options for your DD, OP. Is she good at sport, performing arts, art, music? There are lots of state schools that offer outside catchment area places for those with additional gifts. You still have time to do your homework between now and CAF submission date at the end of October, although it is possible you've missed deadlines for applying to do aptitude tests.

Another one who thinks that OP needs to get an EP assessment for her child. My DS is 10, his year 4 CAT scores were great and ‘on paper’ he should be a super high achiever. We had a full EP assessment done at his private prep in year 3 and the EP was horrified at the gaps in his understanding. He has since been diagnosed with autism. DH and I are both state educated, DH went to Oxbridge and I went to RG and we didn’t know our kid was autistic as he was masking so effectively. He would pass the 11+ as he has had all the ‘training’ but he won’t be sitting the exam. He couldn’t handle the grammar environment and won’t be going to our local very good state secondary either. He will be going to a small local private that exists for kids with difficulties and SEN. Paid for by us, he doesn’t have an EHCP and I don’t expect the state to pay. So many people on here have such strong views about state vs private and ‘success’ but I agree with the previous poster who said there is so much more to life than grades and money. Mental health is top of the list for my child. Good luck to your kids OP, you sound like a great parent, just try to see that there are other things in life apart from grades. Things out there have changed massively, the ‘middle class dream’ of ‘professionals with their perfect lives’ is finished. Make sure your kids are equipped for the realities of the 21st century. That’s going to be our focus.

@nomoneytreehere

Everyone knows the 11plus is competitive. That's why the system is unfair, the wealthy tutor their children heavily from about year 2 to ensure they have the best chance at getting in. Meanwhile Bobby whose mum works nights for minimum wage and doesn't understand the system hasn't got a hope of getting in unless he is a child prodigy or his primary teachers take a very special interest. It's very wrong and all of our children, including those living on sink estates should be receiving the very best of educations. It shouldn't be like this but class sizes are too big in state primaries and the whole thing is about sat scores for the league table not a cultured education. Schools with more disadvantaged intakes should have smaller class sizes as the norm.

I don't live in an 11 plus area and we went private for secondary anyway. You are very naive. Despite being top set in my city's consistently highest ranked primary (intake akin to private - mainly doctors and lawyers and over half go independent by year 7) I tutored my daughter heavily from year 5 as did everyone else I know, including friends whose children were at prep. Had we
been going for a grammar school this would have been even more intense as the prize is coveted! The reality is that your children are up against children like mine, - and I'm not as confident for my younger child who will be examined this year so he has been having even more tuition.

School teaches the curriculum but a lot of learning goes on in the home at primary level. I was privately educated from infant school but my parents didn't know to do much with me whereas I remember my friends having to do endless writing practise and spelling practise. I was naturally bright so just left to get on with it mainly but I would have achieved more if I had been pushed at home too.

If your daughter is as intelligent as you think she would probably benefit from tuition now prior to secondary. She is still young enough to catch up quick.

This is an important point about grammar OP. Grammar entry is more competitive than independent even where the independent is competitive -- except for the very top few. So child has to be even more fully coahced. It's because parents are looking to save £100K by sending their child there. As one poster here said, a lot send their kids to independent primary which costs less than secondary, just to get the 11+, then they go stateside. Also at grammars there is no catchment area so you can live anywhere you like. There are huge advantages but as another said, there is a real downside to making a child retake. May be better for such a child to go to an independent that has a good academic side as its end product but is less competitive about entry.

@nomoneytreehere

Loads of my friends are junior doctors with 8/9/10/11 year olds. What a twatty comment to disbelieve her. I'm a lawyer and I didn't wait until my 40's to start a family and neither did anyone I know without fertility issues. The norm in my circle is first baby around 30 second around 32 back to work full time or 4 days depending on speciality. Doctors often complete their training part time and then need to fight it out for an appropriate post. A friend of mine recently became a consultant at 50.

Loads of posters on mumsnet claim to be drs if asked their career. It effectively shuts down any further arguments or disparaging comments about the posters success in life. It is unusual to have secondary age children as a junior doctor and i also have friends and colleagues who are drs (big deal) .

Also at grammars there is no catchment area so you can live anywhere you like. That isn't entirely true. It varies from grammar (even super-selectives) to grammar as to their admission policy.

@ELOU1111 it's not unusual in my local trust (popular city outside of
London). I can think of half a dozen parents in my child's year 6 intake (so presumably same as op) that are either completing their training (normally mums who have gone part time) or can't find a suitable post (normally dads). On top of that loads of them go off to oz for 2 years as some sort of rite of passage before coming back hoping to pick up a consultant role. Sure a couple won't want to progress as hours are difficult with childcare but it's not always hit 32 /33 get consultants post. They are the quick ones. One of my close friends is well regarded (surgeon) and working really hard for consultancy but having 3 children and 3 maternity leaves has put her back a little bit. She's 40 ish but will probably have to move cities as no room and she doesn't want to move.

Don't get why saying your a doctor shuts down debate though. I know she's a doctor and still think she's missed a trick.

Lots of grammars have geographical catchments - Birmingham, Bucks and Kent off the top of my head.

@NewModelArmyMayhem18

Also at grammars there is no catchment area so you can live anywhere you like. That isn't entirely true. It varies from grammar (even super-selectives) to grammar as to their admission policy.

thanks for making this point, yes I heard some in the midlands were like that, in bucks and berks not. It certainly makes for better social relationships between the pupils during outside school periods.

It isnt the state school v private that is the issue it is the child being pushed and that doesn't and shouldn't just come from school, my daughter just started y7 she has spent in y5 and y6 approx 5mths if that in the school environment, the home learning (and this will be controversial so I apologise now as it won't have been all schools and all teachers at primary) was shocking and no existent the work was sheets downloaded from twinkle and whiterose (I can do that thanks) and there were no and I mean no online lessons and I live in an area where deprivation and lack of resources is not the cause it was just the school wouldn't offer them at all through any of the lock downs or when she was off as the year group was isolating.
However I gave her additional work myself with IXL and choosing subjects to research and write about, I taught her and yes I work 40hr a week luckily at home but still a pressured job and no my DH didn't help as he was a key worker out of the house. I was not willing to let her go into y7 not prepared for a) the workload or b) the type of work, it caused fractious relations sometimes but she knew I was only pushing the potential she has, when she struggled to understand the math despite covering it time and time again because she hadn't been taught it we got her a tutor 1hr per week, she has now just been graded in our local state school no grammar schools here just private which we can't afford for both right now so isn't an option, and her grading has just placed her in the top set and she has taken to high-school like a duck to water
Our DS is y6 now and we have discussed the tutor for him but as yet he seems to be doing fine as he is in school and didn't miss to much of his vital learning with lock down due to his year group and luckily his class never isolating. But we will if we feel he needs it, it does make me angry though that in y6 they have told my son not to do extra homework questions if he does the highest level questions that is fine, that is not encouraging learning in my opinion but hey ho I will still encourage him to do the mid range and the higher questions so that he has at least more understanding and more than just 15min a week homework

Posts like this make me weep. (Some) MNetters appear to be obsessed with and seduced into the myth that all private schools offer better experiences and opportunities for all pupils that state ones, and anyone who can afford to send a child to a private school but doesn't is basically guilty of neglect. Private schools do NOT guarantee success and the value added they offer can be very poor, particularly if your child isn't in the top set.

Some private schools are actually terrible, and you're much more at the mercy of the school than in the state system.

I know several state schools which have shut down unexpectedly, so that all the children had to rush to find other schools, which is not great if you're in an exam year.

Sorry - I mean private schools. You can depend on state schools much more, unless they're tiny.

@TheKeatingFive

The truth is that there are some really crap schools out there, which do not help children reach their potential and in some cases will destroy all their confidence and motivation. And it is very much a postcode lottery as to whether your child ends up in one of these schools.

I do think that’s fair.

However, there’s another angle on this which is that the middle classes who value education and can’t afford private, usually use other versions of cultural capital to avoid their children ending up in these schools.

They do a lot of research on state options, they move to get into catchments, they hire tutors, they do lots of work with kids at home.

The outtake for me, is that a junior doctor who can’t afford to pay and who also is hamstrung on some of these other points, actually has a lot less ability to work the system that many other parents with less ‘prestigious’ jobs. Time and mental energy are increasingly an important differentiator.

Of course the fact that the OP appears to be a single parent (is that correct?) makes things even more difficult.

I’m not sure what the answer is OP, except that the time and mental energy needs to be found somehow.

Personally I’d be looking into private tutors for the younger one. The older kid might do okay in her secondary, but tutors could help her here also.

Hear hear

Both mine what to as comprehensive school that could have been a lot better. They both now have Master degrees in Mathematics and have very good jobs.

OP: If your eldest child was so bright I cannot understand why she did not pass her 11plus. Did you not provide papers for her to go through?
There are also loads of places both online and not online that would have helped her. We/have a kipmcgrath centre in our area. www.kipmcgrath.co.uk
Did you not enter her for scholarships that are available at many private schools?
If the local high school is so dire look around for another one that is better.
For your other child The schoolrun.com. site might help or www.affordableacademicsuccess.com/
Lots of tutors online as well.

Doctors are very well paid compared to many others in this country. Everyone has to live within their means and budget accordingly. If you had wanted to send your children to private school that is what you should have budgeted for, maybe buying a cheaper house or doing without holidays. But as you haven't then surely you can make time to support your children in their homework to get them up to soeed/stop them getting bored. They are, after all, your children and you should make the choices that support them.

YANBU I can see that you are a concerned mum who wants the best for her kids. It's very easy to say, 'look at my kid, he hardly knew xyz, and now he's xyz, and he went to crap school in the neighborhood.' It is disheartening when your child has potential and is not achieving this, or if your child needs more help and support and they they are not getting this. I work long hours too and teaching my bunch is a battle. But definitely try to find a different school, a good tutor or reward your kids for doing extra homework. Also contact the school again. Best of luck

Glad to read your post as I have similar concerns about state schools.
Having received a state education in Africa which was paid for, and comparing it to my kids state education experiences here in UK, I have no faith in this system for my kids.
I'm not saying it's wrong for all kids but it has failed my own. The bullying I schools has had a devastating impact on my family. The lack of care of school staff, teachers and heads especially has meant this couldn't be addressed. Infact it's the headteacher s son calling my son gay, transgender and a rapist to give a few examples.
After soul destroying experiences with state schools I have been applying to independent schools. On a bursary because I have little means. Single parent household and a full time NHS employee to give you context. I now have hope. Smaller class sizes, dedicated inspired teachers, tons of opportunities and desire to grow and develop kids and optimiser their potential. Compared to state school where my child has been told he's too intelligent and too competitive.
If you can go independent. It's worth a try