To feel I have utterly let down my children by sending then to a state school?

[hibbledibble]

I went to a private school, and achieved very well academically.

My children go to a state school, as I can't afford private school. I will never be able to afford it sadly. They go to the local community school, which has a reputation for not being academic.

My eldest is extremely bright, and tested many years ahead of her age on entering the local primary. Now, she has failed to even get to the second round of the 11+. She has really just coasted at school, as they have not set any appropriate work for her, despite multiple requests. They say they can't offer 'gifted and talented' provision, due to funding.

Her sibling is very behind on learning, as she missed loads of school due to lockdowns, and the school offered very little remote provision throughout most of the time. I have asked for support for her, but am told that nothing is available, again, due to funding. Meanwhile, she is struggling with even the basics.

I do think that both of my children would have done better, had they gone to a school where their individual abilities and learning stage was catered for, and they were helped to achieve their potential. I feel I have let them down by not providing them with a good education, which they could have had if I had the money.

Now it's looking likely my eldest will have to go to the terrible, and rough, local secondary, and the underachieving will continue.

@Dancingonmoonlight but poor results in a private school would limit your opportunities. A crap personality, a lazy disposition etc would limit your opportunities. Over 90% of us attended a state school and contract to what some mumsnetters think we don’t all work at the local Spar or are scraping on benefits.

@hibbledibble

I'll repeat it again, I have offered a lot of support at home.

Quite likely it's their state school. I have thought about moving them, but there is no guarantee another state school would be any better, and I am limited by childcare, which limits school choices.

I don't know if others have found that they state school offers effective provision in terms of support for children who are gifted, or need extra academic support?

The discussion I have had with the headteacher leads me to believe this is a nationwide issue, due to funding issues.

You don't have to be limited by childcare you can hire a nanny to collect them from school it's easy. Also are you saying that most people have failed their children then because most of us can not afford private either. I don't think you are very realistic about life tbh

@Puffalicious

Reading this thread there is so much judgement of schools. Schools have teachers that are trained to the same level: there is no difference on how well qualified a teacher is no matter where they teach: they all need a PGCE!

As a qualified teacher I can tell you there is a massive difference between teachers in both education, training and ability. I have seen English departments with hardly any staff with full English degrees. Some teachers with a English degree have only Literature, or only Language. Some have only done contemporary literature (makes it impossibly to teach, say, Chaucer at A level, so weaker and narrower A level courses are chosen by the school). Some maths teachers have a degree with some maths involved (Engineering, Accountancy?) but again, it curtails what they can teach and sometimes they are teaching at or beyond the edges of their own understanding. Then training - some have done degrees with QTS, some a PGCE. Some have qualified with Teach first type courses. Some have qualified abroad. Teachers differ massively. I'd be horrified to be judged the same as some staff I've known.

@teapiggies yes there is a reason she can't move! She's a junior doctor! You get assigned a place. You can't just move.

@hibbledibble I am late to this discussion and have, obviously, NC.

YANBU to think you are failing your children, as I would have felt the same as you if I hadn't managed to get mine through independent schools come what may. XH and I were independently educated right the way through; so were our families. There was no question that there could be any alternative.

YABU to think it's actually true, though, because you're showing them by example that if they work hard and are ambitious, the sky is the limit.

That said: if you are dead set on independent schools - as I was - have you looked into bursaries/scholarships/hard bargaining? I did all of these with my DC, despite earning far less than a junior doctor and being a single mother for a lot of the time. However, my situation was a bit different, in that - having given up a high-earning career to be a SAHM - I was able to take on a menial job at one of my DC's schools, which came with a massive fee reduction. And so on. So there are many ways to skin that particular cat - but you have to be absolutely focussed on getting your children through the independent system in order to do it. One of mine had an academic scholarship at one of the 'big name' schools - but that involved me in teaching them 13+ entrance subjects alongside the prep school which gave us a big discount in the first place. What you can't do is continue to have a reasonable (i.e. not a super high-earning) career, and expect state schooling to come up with the goods - because, with some noble exceptions, they won't. I ditched the career because two things were more important to me, viz. independent schooling and being a SAHM - but I can also see why this would be anathema to others.

I would also say that at least one of my children is monstrously unappreciative of this, and has coasted by with pretty mediocre results and high ambitions which don't match the hard facts of their grades. However, I have done my bit by educating them in the independent sector from 5-18 - after that, it's their job to work out what to do with this particular gift/advantage that they have been given.

All that said: oodles of children are educated well for free. Arguably the best combination is engaged parents, and an 'outstanding' state school with a tiny catchment area consisting of similarly engaged parents with monstrously expensive houses. However, the reality for most people is pretty rubbish or, at best patchy, state provision.

Now going to NC again.

I think you need to rethink your defination of a parent 'utterly letting down' their children and have a word with yourself! It sounds incredibly snobbish and entitled to me to be honest. Millions of parents across the country are doing a brilliant job encouraging, supporting and inspring their children to learn and thrive to be the best they can be academically and as rounded young people (whether they are 'bright' or less bright). Not sending DC to a private school does not mean a parent has 'let their DC down'. What utter nonesense.

What are all these tests in state schools that accurately pinpoint how advanced a child is?

Is this an actual real assessment or a teacher saying once that your 7 year old read a book that’s aimed at 12-13 yr olds.

definition!

@Bumpsadaisie I guess you aren't aware that junior doctors can NOT move during training??

but poor results in a private school would limit your opportunities

Private schools are more likely to intervene and organise additional help when they see a student struggling.
My local state schools use their time following up on poor attendance, replacing their very high turnover of staff and organising subs to replace teachers. The percentage going to 3rd level is very low. Some go to uni but they are in the minority. The kids attending the local schools here have far fewer choices when they leave school with mediocre results.
98% of the kids who go to private school go to 3rd level. Are they all the brightest? Definitely not. Most probably they have involved parents who can afford tutors and extra lessons during holidays in addition to a very involved school whose high achieving reputation is paramount is the reason they do so well.

I'm afraid I concur with @ChristinaXYZ. Lots of secondary schools can't get qualified teachers to work in them, especially in London. You might be a really qualified teacher who works for a few years in a school where it's tough to teach, but you jump ship pretty sharpish to an easier school because you can. There are state schools in London that are mostly fully staffed with highly qualified good teachers, but that's the exception rather than the rule, and those are the schools with the excellent reputation, and everyone is desperate to move close to them when house hunting.

I went to a State school that was closed when I left, due to appalling standards. My brother went to the same school. He is a Professor, and I have a doctorate. I had a boyfriend who went to an elite private school on a scholarship. He had a very high IQ and could have potentially achieved a lot. He did really well at A' level, but dropped out of University and drifted through life in various entry-level jobs. With the internet, it is easy to access a world of academic resources for all ages and all abilities. Home educated children rely on this. The idea that schools 'educate' children is misguided...they enable an education at best given that the teachers have to deliver lessons to classes of multiple abilities and dispositions. Some children have family members helping, others have private tutors etc. The notion that an education from the independent sector guarantees later success in life is not true. I teach students from state and private school backgrounds. Those that thrive in higher education have motivation to learn, a sense of independence in their learning and a personal accountability for their academic output. It doesn't matter if they started out in state or private school.

Hugs OP. I know how you feel!

Thing is l, every child in the country would probably do better in a private school what with the smaller classes better facilities etc. Yes your children sound very bright and would have achieved better at a private - but struggling students and triubked students would also do better at a private. But few get to go. I wouldn’t say you failed your children just that you were lucky to have had that opportunity yourself.

One option might be to consider a house move to an area without the 11+ system and with a nearby excellent state school. Some states are very very good. Most are not unfortunately because of budget cuts and overcrowding etc.

You are right. Those who don’t agree with you are kidding themselves. I teach at a private school and you just can’t compare to a state school-even an ‘outstanding’ state school.

@skysblue as a junior doctor you can't move during training placements unfortunately.

I think the massive difficulty in recruitment is predominantly an issue with London tbh, I don't schools elsewhere have the same issue. Teaching is just too poorly paid, compared to other professions in London, it can't attract enough graduates. If you're a Maths graduate in London, are you going to earn £50k plus starting in the City (rising to over 100k), or are you going to work in a school where you'll be on £30k after a few years? If you've the ability to be a great teacher, you could likely make TONS more money doing something else.

@Happymum12345

You are right. Those who don’t agree with you are kidding themselves. I teach at a private school and you just can’t compare to a state school-even an ‘outstanding’ state school.

Unless you have taught in every private school and every state school in the country then you are just generalising.

Not all private schools are great or deliver great results.

@Tillysfad

So she didn't work and you also lack discipline at home.

You're in a very demanding job and have not been able to offer the support she should have had in these circumstances.

The state school has an unmotivated, undisciplined child on their hands which is apparently entirely their fault because they don't have the resources for a gifted and talented programme.

And you have magically missed the online tutoring boom of the last 18 months. You can click your fingers and have a learning package that day or a real life tutor in days.

I'm sure it's been hard but some of these problems are not down to the school and if they hadn't been there, the school might have had a chance. Do you have any idea how much the class clown disrupts the learning of children who really need to focus?

I could make my bright children learn the curriculum in an hour a day and quite frankly tiredness or laziness would be stream rollered out of them for their own benefit because I'm their parent and I choose what's best for them. I also have huge amounts of support for my gifted child in the form of online programmes that are easy to access and supervise. This would not work with additional needs so that's another kettle of fish.

I think you're unreasonable. Let go of the private school pipe dream as it's fuelling your no-can-do attitude. You seem apathetic about changing this yourself but you can.

This is the best answer by far above.

Let the past go and just move forward doing what's best for her now. It's not too late for her to have a good secondary school career and have a bright future.
There is more to life than school once you get beyond school, if you see what i mean.

I have three friends who are professors at the top of their academic fields (all different professions). All three of them went to state primaries and comprehensives schools. Just saying ...

@Happymum12345

You are right. Those who don’t agree with you are kidding themselves. I teach at a private school and you just can’t compare to a state school-even an ‘outstanding’ state school.

@Happymum12345

So I suppose there is a special uni you went to where you received outstanding training in comparison to all these 'state' school trained teachers!

I did one day of training during my four year course in a private school. They were lightyears behind any state school I've ever taught in...however they did have one thing going for them that some children in state schools don't have, and that's parents who support them at home!!

Hands down give me any state school, I would never ever choose to teach private, that one day put me off for life!

There’s a big difference between private and state school where we are. But to say you’ve let your kids down by not sending them to a private school is nuts. Yes they haven’t achieved what you’ve wanted them to but are they happy? Private schools teach a very narrow view of what “success” is and it sounds like you subscribe to that. Plenty of people in state school don’t do exceptionally well in exams but they enjoy their childhood and find their feet later in life doing something that makes them happy. I have private school and state school friends and some of my highest earning friends now are those that went to state school, scraped a couple of exams and now work in media or IT. The world has changed and achieving high grades and getting a good job just doesn’t equate to a comfortable lifestyle any more in the way that it used to. Listen to your kids, find out their interests and focus on that rather than over all academic success.

I have three friends who are professors at the top of their academic fields (all different professions). All three of them went to state primaries and comprehensives schools. Just saying ...

I don’t understand your point. There are different standards in different state schools. Some are good, some are ok and some are awful. It can’t be so difficult to understand that surely?
All the posts saying ‘I knew someone who went to med school after being in the local comp’ are irrelevant if the OP’s kids are going to a bad school. And there are as many poor to average schools as there are average to excellent schools.

My brother had thousands spent on his schooling, private, public, crammers, and never passed an exam. In his 40s, he finally woke up, studied and then went to university. Got a good degree and then a job he loved. It’s not all about the school, state or private. The individual has to be the engine. Parents and school help a lot, obviously. But they can help only do so much.

Is there no way to move to a cheaper place - outside London? - to finish your training? Is your partner also a junior doctor?

The pandemic has thrown a spanner in the works for coaching, but all is not lost - you could get a tutor for common entrance and see what kind of scholarship your eldest could get.

It is not true that all state schools are equal. It is your job as a parent to find out which ones are better - and lots of primaries are better than "kids make zero progress for 4 years". Not going private is not the end of the world but you have to research and act to get your kids into the better state schools and that's not a secret.

@Onthetrain75

I don’t think you can blame the school for your daughter not passing the 11+. Both my children got into selective secondaries from private schools, but plenty of their peers did not. Now that they are at secondary, there are plenty that came through state primary. All the secondaries we looked at were at pains to point out that the tests are meant to spot potential, and that as long as the children have some idea of what to expect e.g it shouldn’t be the first time they’ve seen a verbal reasoning paper, then it’s not about being trained to pass.

Oh yes it is about being trained to pass. The whole 11+ is about training repeatedly with the right books to spot the same puzzle questions. Hats off to anyone who gets through 11+ on native wit. The vast majority ie 99% of parents either pay a tutor or have their kids in a private prep school that does the training. So any parent who does bot realise that is not to blame, but has been kept incredibly unaware of the huge posse of grammar school candidate oarents who train their kids into the ground from year 4. I know - I was one of them - just to get out of borough.