to just be sick of men..

[crochetmonkey74]

Caught by accident two family men known to me discussing how they'd 'got their own pictures' of a dance teacher who was teaching their 6 year old daughters. They were with their wives and children, both supposedly Christian - both in their early 30s so not a generational thing as is often trotted out. It occured to me that when they were dating their wives they would have been MORTIFIED for these new shiny women to hear them being so gross yet now the wives have committed, given them children, become part of the furniture they are supposed to listen to any old shit.
And yes, I know that there are loads of you who will say 'my DH /DP would never dream of doing this' so obviously I am not talking about them- is anyone else just fed up of continually being disappointed even by men you previously liked or trusted?
I know I am being ranty but i'm going with it!

Did you report his behaviour to your boss at school

Of course. He agreed it was weird and uncomfortable. He agreed he was a bit of a creep. He said he would keep an eye and intervene if he witnessed anything inappropriate or if any more disturbing red flags appeared with his sons. However, he and the Safeguarding Lead were clear that he'd broke no law, the images of me were not explicit or of me under the age of consent and were publicly available and that they couldn't police people's thoughts.

Oh go away. Do you have any idea how often we hear the same old crap everyday? Go and get a bloody life.

Hmm. Okay well that says something different then.

I know the "Man here" routine on MN all too well.

I'm with you OP this week I've had to do an unusual bit of work that involves being on the roadside. Men yelling at me from vehicles - this isnt in the evening, it's like 7 and 8 am on their way to work, wtf?

@PickUpAPepper

Ooh, the pic posted! Sorry, the pic wasn't actually aimed at you SJ, although I expect you'll struggle to believe that. It's one that I used to see on here once upon a time and the damn thing wasn't posting separately.

That's fine. I did wonder at first but it didn't make sense to me how it would be aimed at me, given your post. Also, since you mentioned a meme, I took it as you showing the image of the meme.

It's annoying when women keep being asked 'did you report it? Did you challenge it?' As if the responsibility lies with us to sort it out. Why isn't the anger with those that did the thing?

Those who did it are arseholes but do you want them to report themselves or challenge themselves? Obviously, that's the problem - that they're either too blind to see what they're doing or too arrogant to care.

If you're going to complain about them not being challenged, then challenge them. Someone has to and the sooner women start doing so openly and directly, the better.

Middle aged ones are often remarkably stroppy

Careful, you get screeched at if you say anything mildly ageist on Mumsnet

@crochetmonkey74

It's annoying when women keep being asked 'did you report it? Did you challenge it?' As if the responsibility lies with us to sort it out. Why isn't the anger with those that did the thing?

Anyone who overhears these behaviours, br they male or female has a responsibility to challenge it. You also said you knew these men? So presumably, you'll be choosing to remove the from your life and (assuming it is safe to do so) making damn sure they and any other relevant parties, know why.

But yes, sometimes it is tough to do the right thing. That's why it's called bravery.

@crochetmonkey74

It's annoying when women keep being asked 'did you report it? Did you challenge it?' As if the responsibility lies with us to sort it out. Why isn't the anger with those that did the thing?

I mean, I had a duty of care to report concerns so obviously I reported it. But you are right...I shouldn't have had to report it because it shouldn't have happened in the first place.

"Did you report it?" is just another stock phrase...

"Why was she walking alone after dark?"

"What were you wearing?"

"She was asking for it."

"What did she expect dressed like that?"

"Why didn't you get a taxi instead of walking?"

"You did accept a drink from him."

"Maybe you led him on"

or, my favourite.

"What was her mother thinking letting her out dressed like that in the first place?"

No it isn't.

Comments like "why was she there?" Is the same as what you just said "It shouldn't have happened in the first place".

But it HAS happened. There's no changing it or need to blame.

Comments like "did you report it or challenge it" is asking now that it's happened, what could/did you do? By all means, challenge it. (Assuming it's safe to do so). That's how it starts being clear that it's unacceptable.

What else do you prefer? Don't do anything about it after it's happened? Just come on mn and talk about it? How does that help (if changing it is what you want)?

Comparing this with terrorism is a massive reach and just demonstrates a complete inability (or unwillingness) to understand the point that countless PPs have taken the time to explain now.

No it’s not OK to generalise an entire group of people because the majority of terrorism is committed by that group. It would be OK to take issue with that group in a more general sense if a significant proportion (probably majority) of the group were either involved in terrorist attacks or in less severe but still related activities.

"Majority of terrorism committed by X group" is not the same as "majority of X group are terrorists".

It's not only the fact that almost all violent crime and sexual crime is committed by men, it's the fact that such a massive proportion of men engage in misogynistic behaviour to one degree or another. And that all men benefit from patriarchy.

The fact that men are the oppressor group in this scenario, and that all men benefit from patriarchy, and that men (in general) possess greater social currency and power than women, is the reason that men have a responsibility to challenge sexism and male on female violence. It's not enough to be the "good guy" standing on the sidelines. It is OK to hold men to account.

Unless you mean the other version of "Did you report it?" that some people say when someone comes out months or years later, in a way to tell them they've missed their chance.

Then, yes that can be similar.

@IWantT0BreakFree

Comparing this with terrorism is a massive reach and just demonstrates a complete inability (or unwillingness) to understand the point that countless PPs have taken the time to explain now.

No it’s not OK to generalise an entire group of people because the majority of terrorism is committed by that group. It would be OK to take issue with that group in a more general sense if a significant proportion (probably majority) of the group were either involved in terrorist attacks or in less severe but still related activities.

"Majority of terrorism committed by X group" is not the same as "majority of X group are terrorists".

It's not only the fact that almost all violent crime and sexual crime is committed by men, it's the fact that such a massive proportion of men engage in misogynistic behaviour to one degree or another. And that all men benefit from patriarchy.

The fact that men are the oppressor group in this scenario, and that all men benefit from patriarchy, and that men (in general) possess greater social currency and power than women, is the reason that men have a responsibility to challenge sexism and male on female violence. It's not enough to be the "good guy" standing on the sidelines. It is OK to hold men to account.

Some really intelligent and thoughtful comments. Thank you. You have given me reason to stop and think.

Would be true to a similar situation exists with racism?

Racism is widespread and oppresses people of colour, therefore it follows that all white people benefit from racism.

*would it is true to say...

That wasn't the point of my thread at all- I clearly stated that I wasn't talking about them as a homogeneous group

You start a thread saying you are "just sick of men" but weren't talking about them as a homogenous group?

@Suprima

Lighting a candle out there for all of the handmaid ‘not all men’ gang

They still treat you like shit and they don’t like you any better

Glad you are out there fighting their fight though they aren’t doing that for you

I keep thinking about this , particularly the 'they don't like you any better' bit. I think that's what made me the most angry. These are the men who are meant to be nice, who present with all the right attitudes to women, who have been at training about it. Who have young strong wives and daughters of their own. AND STILL this is how they talk. It makes me so angry because you still kind of feel helpless- what else has to be done before this behaviour goes?

R.E. Ouioui’s comment- And this is why as a dance teacher I am too self conscious to wear a leotard and tights to teach in. I always remember as a young graduate teacher in my first teaching post, being made to feel distinctly uncomfortable by a handful of men openly making comments to each other about me whilst I skipped around the room with their 2 and 3 year olds, at my first ever open house class display. Since I was 21 I have worn sports leggings and a t-shirt over my dancewear, even on the hottest days, and even when parents aren’t in the class watching. Because at 21 I didn’t have the confidence to stop the class and call them out on it in front of the other parents watching.

I wish more people would openly state their positions like this. Just be open about it, you hate white people, you support the genocide of white race. Just own it. That's who you are, don't hide behind some BLM narrative

wut?

@crochetmonkey74

It's annoying when women keep being asked 'did you report it? Did you challenge it?' As if the responsibility lies with us to sort it out. Why isn't the anger with those that did the thing?

Absolutely.

“Why didn’t you challenge it? Why didn’t you speak up?”

Like it’s our responsibility to correct this? No. Bullshit.

If women challenged every bit of misogyny and objectification we encountered, that’s all we’d do. Our time, emotional energy, focus would be entirely consumed by calling it out, arguing with the denials and “it’s just banter” and being branded a troublemaker or having no sense of humour or being a feminazi.

What do you think that would do for our careers? Relationships? Financial and social stability? And it would be bloody exhausting.

Absolutely call this shit out when you have the time, energy and security to do so. All power to you, my sisters! But it is not the job of women on the receiving end of misogynistic behaviour and abuse to solve it. We have burdens enough.

@crochetmonkey74

The intent was definitely clear - I haven't misread it.

How can you be so sure ?

There is no shortage of images to wank over on the internet, or they could have found her image on FB or the dance school website. I doubt anyone would take a photo, crop the kid out and then have a wank.

@seaandsandcastles

And I’m sure there are lots of men who are just sick of women for X, Y and X.

Men aren’t one homogeneous group so don’t treat them like one.

Why is this your first response? What has happened in your life to make you immediately turn to "whataboutery" instead of condemning the actions of MANY men?

Who perpetrated the majority of violent crime? Men.

Who commits the majority of sexual attacks? Men.

The majority of pedophiles are which sex? Men.

You'll get no rewards for being a handmaiden. Wake up.

TheHouseIsOnFire I agree 100% about what men come out with when they forget women are around. Due to my career I worked in a male dominated environment for many years. I had a lot of male friends because of this. As the years passed they looked on me as one of the lads and sort of forgot I was a woman. These men were well educated professionals.

How can you be so sure ?

Because I was there

To be clear, as stated previously it was a JOKE between them about them taking their own pictures as she was attractive. I have not said they took the picture, cropped the kids out and started wanking. It was 2 men who should know better making a horrible joke.

It's no wonder women don't want to report this stuff- I'm an average woman on a mainly female forum talking about my lived experience and people are more inclined to give the men who did this the benefit of the doubt rather than think I might actually be telling the truth.

Cue next posters telling me my truth is wrong/ my thread title is wrong/ I wasn't even there/ the men were just talking about some other pictures with an entirely un-wanking vibe : )