To think becoming a first time mother in your 60s is the height of selfishness?

[CounsellorTroi]

www.vogue.co.uk/arts-and-lifestyle/article/julia-peyton-jones

Had a baby alone at 64. She’ll be 80 years old when her daughter is 16. There’s a good chance she’ll be dead by the time the child is 30. She could well die before the child reaches 25. So very selfish.

@welliesarefuntowear

Elton John had children at this age. Is he selfish?

He has a husband 15 years younger than him .

@CounsellorTroi

I’ve asked this before and got no answer. When is a woman definitively too old to obtain and bring up a newborn? There are a couple of cases in India of women doing this in their 70s. One gave birth to twins.

Obtain ? WTF ? I don't think I would ever quote India as an example of high standard medical ethics.

She didn’t ‘have’ a baby in any meaningful sense though, did she? She clearly didn’t use her own egg, nor even carry the baby. She paid for a baby.

That’s not what I was doing - quite the opposite.

@CounsellorTroi Do you feel as strongly about other women's choices?

For example, more than 2 children given the over population of the planet?
Young girls who cannot support their children?
Couples who cannot provide a safe environment for a child (because of lack of income, or drug or drink addictions)

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@CounsellorTroi Do you feel as strongly about other women's choices?

For example, more than 2 children given the over population of the planet?
Young girls who cannot support their children?
Couples who cannot provide a safe environment for a child (because of lack of income, or drug or drink addictions)[/quote]
None of those are ideal. That doesn’t mean I can’t think a 64 year old is selfish for commissioning a child.

@JinglingHellsBells I’m ageist for suggesting that a woman in her 60s shouldn’t have a baby? I’ve heard it all now. Yeah why not. 90 year olds too - Chuck them a few newborns.

If adopting the criteria is extremely strict and a lone 60 year old would be laughed out of the office. Which is as it should be. Any any IVF worth its salt wouldn’t even entertain it. But because she’s rich she can buy a baby from a poorer woman. It’s repugnant.

And your friend is her 80s is most definitely in the minority.

[quote HermioneKipper]@JinglingHellsBells I’m ageist for suggesting that a woman in her 60s shouldn’t have a baby? I’ve heard it all now. Yeah why not. 90 year olds too - Chuck them a few newborns.

If adopting the criteria is extremely strict and a lone 60 year old would be laughed out of the office. Which is as it should be. Any any IVF worth its salt wouldn’t even entertain it. But because she’s rich she can buy a baby from a poorer woman. It’s repugnant.

And your friend is her 80s is most definitely in the minority.[/quote]
No, @HermioneKipper, ageist because you think that all women in their 80s are doddery and / or needing care, as you said in your last post.

My friend is most certainly not in the minority. The pool is full of women her age (with whom she swims) who are very fit and with it.

Maybe you only know of doddery older people. I know my friend, but also many other women in their late 70s and early 80s who are living very full and energetic lives.

Well I must be unusual then as I do indeed only know of fairly doddery people in their 80s, who need a lot of help with things and are starting to get forgetful. The best preserved oldies I know are in their late 70s and live in our road. They still drive, do the gardening, go for walks etc. But they will comment that they’re exhausted after seeing their teenage grandchildren for a few hours on a Sunday. So god knows how they’d cope if they had them full time.

I’m sorry but there’s no way any of the old people you know could deal with a teenager and associated issues. They well lead full lives but parenting at that age is a completely different ballgame and frankly you’re either taking the piss or quite thick for suggesting that it’s perfectly fine to have a teenage daughter when you’re in your 80s. Bonkers

Well I must be unusual then as I do indeed only know of fairly doddery people in their 80s, who need a lot of help with things and are starting to get forgetful.

Judi Dench, 86, still working, hardly doddery. Jane Fonda, 83, ditto writing, publishing, performing. Cher, 75, still touring. Sheila Hancock, 86, still active, writing, presenting, performing. Angela Lansbury, 95, still performing. Joan Collins, 88, full of life and touring her own show, as well as performing. Julie Andrews, 85, still performing. I could go on and on and on.

@milkyaqua

Well I must be unusual then as I do indeed only know of fairly doddery people in their 80s, who need a lot of help with things and are starting to get forgetful.

Judi Dench, 86, still working, hardly doddery. Jane Fonda, 83, ditto writing, publishing, performing. Cher, 75, still touring. Sheila Hancock, 86, still active, writing, presenting, performing. Angela Lansbury, 95, still performing. Joan Collins, 88, full of life and touring her own show, as well as performing. Julie Andrews, 85, still performing. I could go on and on and on.

These are very impressive women, but I would be willing to bet that the filming schedules etc. that they are undertaking now are much less rigourous than what they would have been capable of in their 30s and 40s.

Ageing exists and it has significant effects on the human body. It's not something that can be denied.

And the list of actors and singers who do not go on to perform in their 80s and 90s will be much longer...

I don't personally know anyone of that age who would be able to undertake the kind of work schedule that is normal for a person in their 30s / 40s.

@welliesarefuntowear

Elton John had children at this age. Is he selfish?

Yes.

I’m sorry but there’s no way any of the old people you know could deal with a teenager and associated issues.

Maybe your world is very narrow @HermioneKipper?

Many grandparents in their 80s are a valuable source of support in many ways to teenage grandchildren. They don't have to be picking them up from clubs at 2am to be able to offer guidance and emotional support.

When JPJ is older, she will have help in many shapes and forms.
She's an exceptional and high achieving woman in many ways already and what she can offer her child however long they may be together is likely to be valuable.

We simply don't know enough about the circumstances of the baby and its parentage. The donor father may be her partner. The birth mother may be a family member. The child may have been 'adopted' rather than a surrogate baby.

JPJ was interviewed on Woman's Hour about this, last week. Maybe listen to it?

On balance, I agree that 64 is very late indeed to bring up a baby and as a modus operandi, not to be endorsed. But without knowing the full story and the contingency plans in place, I don't think it's fair to be judgemental.

Can I suggest that you are

@BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand But when JPJ is 16, her mother will be 80. You're talking as if the mum will be doing the school run for a 5 year old when she's 80!

Lots of women have nannies and help, so of course she won't be doing hands-on everything.

I wouldn't to have a mother who was 64 when I was born even though my mother is that age and very fit.

Yes my grandparents were wonderful and I loved them very much. And I miss them now because they’re all long dead.

And as wonderful as they were, they in no way played the same role as my parents did or do. And they wouldn’t have been capable of it. In my apparently extremely narrow world-view, none of my friends grandparents would’ve been capable of fulfilling the parental role successfully either.

I’m sure they could’ve coped if they had no other options but it certainly wouldn’t be recommended.

My mum is named in our will as the person to bring up our children should anything happen to us (and she’s currently mid 60s) and she could do it if she absolutely had to but it would be a hideous situation indeed if it came to that.

This lady may well have money and help at her disposal but that is just not the same as having a mother who is of an age that elderly care isn’t on the horizon for a 12 year old

Just spent some time chatting to a 60 + year old who fosters babies. She's the sister of a friend of mine. She's had a succession of babies and early toddlers over the past decade. All from young mothers who had problems which necessitated the children being removed. This foster mum has boundless patience and good sense (helps that she trained as a nurse), and no children of her own. So I'd say age per se isn't an issue. I am a little squeamish tho about surrogacy. I understand that in the best cases there's a balance of power and benefit. But still...
We don't know do we if this case is surrogacy? Or have I missed that?

In theory, anyone could have a child and pass away suddenly while that child is still very young; I taught a girl whose mother passed at the age of 24 when she was just a few months old, from an undiagnosed lung condition. I could get hit by a bus in a freak accident tomorrow and leave mine behind.
Having said that, starting at 64 puts you at the mercy of age related conditions and it’s really quite irresponsible. My own mother had to go into a nursing home at 68 due to Alzheimer’s. What would happen to the 3/4 year old child if this happens?

I was at school with one child who had sadly lost her mum. I imagine that had I been in a class of children whose mums had been 60 when they born, there’d have be a more than 1:30 chance that their mum wouldn’t see them reaching secondary school.

@HermioneKipper I agree the scenario with JPJ isn't ideal or really to be recommended.

You can't compare your own mum and how she'd look after your children with JPJ, who is very wealthy, has masses of support, and- we don't know- maybe a partner who is 10-15 years younger.

Maybe I know more fit and energetic older people as I am closer to your Mum's age than you are to JPJ.

My aunt, like jpj, is a glamorous 69 year old who is fit and well who's never carried babies of her own (very involved with all her nieces and nephews lives though).
She's amazing with my dc. She plays football, arranges sleep-overs, plays board games, cycles, hikes and looks 10 years younger than she is.
But to be a mother to a young child at this age.. No way. She's quite happy to hand the kids back to me eventually. Besides, the life expectancy is a reality. And also, she can't really keep up with things like tiktok, Instagram etc. And as a parent you need to.
It's hugely irresponsible and selfish to have a baby in old age. And old age it is, no matter how fit you are.

I just dont see what business it is of yours tbh.
Seems as though you just needed something to moan about today!!

@AtlasPine

Plenty of men do parenthood at that age.

Yep, and that's totally selfish too

@AtlasPine

Plenty of men do parenthood at that age.

Yes but there is always a much younger woman