To think Kurt Cobain was ahead of his time (feminism, racism, homophobia)

[AllisoninWunderland]

I’ve just been watching the documentary about him (man I loved him).

Aside from changing the face of music and fashion in the early 90s, aibu to think he was way ahead of his time in his views?

This is from the liner notes of their album “Incesticide,” they warned:

“If any of you in any way hate homosexuals, people of different color, or women, please do this one favor for us — leave us the f- alone! Don’t come to our shows and don’t buy our records.” The liner notes to their next album, “In Utero,” echoed that admonition: “If you’re a sexist, racist, homophobe or basically an ahole, don’t buy this CD. I don’t care if you like me, I hate you.”

He was an extremely sensitive man, highly tuned into ‘the under-dog’, a supporter of people of colour, women and the LGBTQ community.

What a waste 😢

Spysolation I would really love to learn about a male musician who created incredible art without leaving a trail of destruction and women to pick up the pieces

Eddie Vedder. He always drew the short stick in comparison to Kurt at the time, but he was always more stable than Kurt, not being a druggie for one. Also liberal, anti-racist, has strong feminist values, pro-choice, always seems to be someone who practices what he preaches. I love him and I've always loved his music.

There are those who would argue that he was a selfish drug addict who left a child without a father

He declared on TV "Courtney Love from the band Hole is the fuck of the century"

@Penistoe Agreed. I was born in early 80s. So clubbing in mid to late 90s. I was sexually assaulted so often in clubs and previously school I didn’t even realise it was that, just thought it was ‘how boys were’.

Mid-late 90s was very different to the early 90s grunge scene though. At least that's the point that the poster accused of wearing rose-tinted glasses is making. It's been said repeatedly throughout the thread that by the mid-90s Brit pop and 'lad' culture was mainstream and that brought with it a huge backslide in how women were treated.

That said, I don't think referring to your future wife as the 'fuck of the century' on tv is all that respectful a way to treat women really.

@Penistoe

ItWearsTheBatteriesOut

Joolsin
His views were pretty standard for that time and that scene, really. I was in my early 20s then and going to loads of gigs. I felt completely safe and equal among all the grunge guys. Clothes/hair was pretty unisex. People of different races/sexualities were universally accepted. Looking back, the freedom and lack of objectification was great. When my daughter started going out at night in recent years, I was appalled by her stories of being groped on the way to the dance floor so frequently it became an expected thing. This would simply not have happened in my gigging/clubbing days - if any guy had tried this, the others would have turned on him, it would have been social suicide.

I'd remove those tinted glasses if I was you

Agreed. I was born in early 80s. So clubbing in mid to late 90s. I was sexually assaulted so often in clubs and previously school I didn’t even realise it was that, just thought it was ‘how boys were’.

Do you both know me? No. So you can't negate what I'm saying. I'm describing the alternative/grunge scene as I and my friends lived it in my city in the early 90s. Was life perfect? No. But there was no culture of rampant misogyny. I've discussed this with old friends, both female and male, in recent years due to all our teenage girls' really shockingly bad experiences, and my memories have been corroborated. Also, @Penistoe, you're a good decade younger than me and you're describing mid to late 90s, different time, post grunge, not early 90s which was my era.

Well yes, those of us born in the 1970s were bigots, obviously, because we didn’t have such fabulous role models as a drug addict and his drug addict wife to teach us otherwise

So was the 90s the only decade with no misogyny at all? That does surprise me

I don't think people have said there was no misogyny but there was an obvious shift in attitudes to women at gigs and in clubs. I can remember the first time I was groped in a club precisely because it had never happened before despite the fact I'd been clubbing for years. I think it did depend which cities you were in too. Some had much less tolerance for guys being abusive.

None of that was down to Kurt Cobain because actually despite the mythology, he wasn't that important. His music wasn't genre-defining. His values (in his liner notes) were borrowed. And his treatment of women was appalling.

@ElizaDarcysDeeds

I don't think people have said there was no misogyny but there was an obvious shift in attitudes to women at gigs and in clubs. I can remember the first time I was groped in a club precisely because it had never happened before despite the fact I'd been clubbing for years. I think it did depend which cities you were in too. Some had much less tolerance for guys being abusive.

I went to rock gigs and festivals in the 80s and never had any issues with dodgy blokes. Personal experience isn’t necessarily that informative

I agree with the PP saying that there was little harrassment around the alternative scene in the early 90s. I went to loads of indie nights in clubs and countless gigs in pubs and larger venues. I wasnt ever harassed or groped at these, most of the time I was there with female friends. Out on the streets or at 'Townie' venues was a different story.

Was that because the music was so depressing that nobody could be arsed?

@LukeEvansWife

Well yes, those of us born in the 1970s were bigots, obviously, because we didn’t have such fabulous role models as a drug addict and his drug addict wife to teach us otherwise

So was the 90s the only decade with no misogyny at all? That does surprise me

You do know that Kurt was born in the late 60s don’t you?? I don’t necessarily agree with the OP but she didn’t say that everyone born before the 90s is a bigot

I was London based in late 80s/early 90s and the clubs I frequented felt like an extension of the anything goes attitude hanging over from the 80s - mixed gay/straight and anything in between. Full Tilt in Electric Ballroom in Camden had a brilliant mix of live music - grunge, punk, metal, alt rock and a pitch black thrash box on the 1st floor if you were a fan of tinnitus.

The beauty of these places were that you could go there and dance without being pestered by "lads", unlike pubs and nightclubs of the time that played pop/soul. As someone who spent my twenties fielding unwanted pestering, alternative rock venues/gigs were heaven.

@LukeEvansWife

Was that because the music was so depressing that nobody could be arsed?

I always find it grossly irritating when someone describes Nirvana (or Radiohead, or other bands of that ilk) as ‘depressing’ - as though that entire movement can be summed up with one word.

It betrays a hell of a lot of ignorance IMO and is usually only said by people who aren’t really music fans aside from listening to manufactured shite of course.

It betrays a hell of a lot of ignorance IMO and is usually only said by people who aren’t really music fans aside from listening to manufactured shite of course.

I don’t listen to manufactured music, thank you. But feel free to call me ignorant or anything else - I haven’t had a dig at any posters personally, you don’t know me or my musical tastes so it does make you look a little unhinged

You do know that Kurt was born in the late 60s don’t you??
I don’t necessarily agree with the OP but she didn’t say that everyone born before the 90s is a bigot confused

No but people are basically saying that a few sleeve notes makes KC ahead of his time, as if nobody thought of it before him.

@LukeEvansWife

It betrays a hell of a lot of ignorance IMO and is usually only said by people who aren’t really music fans aside from listening to manufactured shite of course.

I don’t listen to manufactured music, thank you. But feel free to call me ignorant or anything else - I haven’t had a dig at any posters personally, you don’t know me or my musical tastes so it does make you look a little unhinged

Ok fair enough, I take back the ‘manufactured shite’ comment. But, out of curiosity, how much of Nirvana’s music have you actually listened to?

Plenty - my ex was into them.

@LukeEvansWife

Plenty - my ex was into them.

Define ‘plenty’ though? Do you like any of it at all? Or do you think their entire back catalogue is ‘depressing’?

I have not heard anything that I liked - it’s shite. But then I’m entitled to think that.

I know I am being ridiculous but I can’t quite bring myself to listen to any of her music either. I can’t stand watching her being interviewed etc - but in doing that I suppose I’m not giving myself enough information to form a balanced view on her

Irrational hatred of strangers isn’t normal

There’s always been bandwagons to jump on

@NeverDropYourMooncup

Yes, he did share views that people had held for many, many years beforehand. But he was also a junkie cocklodger who rinsed his first serious girlfriend only to dump her when his career took off.

Don't put humans on a pedestal just because they made records you liked as a teenager.

That's really nasty

And album notes are hardly going out and campaigning.

@LukeEvansWife

I have not heard anything that I liked - it’s shite. But then I’m entitled to think that.

Of course you are entitled to think that Just thinking that you probably haven’t listened to much of their stuff if you cannot find anything you like.

Out of interest, what sort of music are you in to?