Page 5 | To think Kurt Cobain was ahead of his time (feminism, racism, homophobia)

AllisoninWunderland · 2021-09-18T21:58:28+00:00

I’ve just been watching the documentary about him (man I loved him). Aside from changing the face of music and fashion in the early 90s, aibu to think he was way ahead of his time in his views? This is from the liner notes of their album “Incesticide,” they warned: “If any of you in any way hate homosexuals, people of different color, or women, please do this one favor for us — leave us the f--- alone! Don’t come to our shows and don’t buy our records.” The liner notes to their next album, “In Utero,” echoed that admonition: “If you’re a sexist, racist, homophobe or basically an a--hole, don’t buy this CD. I don’t care if you like me, I hate you.” He was an extremely sensitive man, highly tuned into ‘the under-dog’, a supporter of people of colour, women and the LGBTQ community. What a waste 😢

NotDavidTennant · 19/09/2021 10:16

It depends a bit on your perspective. Kurt's views were probably not that excetiopnal within the alternative music scene, but the alternative music scene at the time was vastly more progressive than mainstream culture.

Remember that when Nirvana started out Regan was still in power in the US and Thatcher in power over here. Rock music in the late 80s reflected tha values of that time with lots of celebration of machismo and indvidualistic hedonism. The alternative rock movement that Nirvana spearheaded into the mainstrem was a reaction against that culture in favour of a view of the word that was more progressive and socially aware.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 19/09/2021 10:22

@VanGoSunflowers

Isn't this misogyny at it's best? Cobain was a tortured soul whose actions can be excused. But Love, quite possibly his victim?

No, it isn’t. You can dislike certain women and not be a misogynist. Quite simple, I get an incredibly bad and creepy vibe from her. We have no way of knowing for sure who was the victim in that relationship. Maybe they both were. But mine is a very physical reaction.

I do think Courtney rubs people up the wrong way. Have you seen the Babes in Toyland Bruise Violet video?

That being said, it's also common for people on the spectrum to struggle with social interactions so could factor into why so many take against her (or get the creeps as you put it).

What is clear is that Kurt found a kindred spirit in her, found someone who understood his own isolation.

BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand · 19/09/2021 10:24

As someone who was around (and into that whole alternative scene) at the time, Cobain's stated views were not unusual in the slightest. I agree with others that many things have moved backwards since then.

I also disagree when people excuse sexist/racist views from 20+ years ago saying that standards were different back then. Because they weren't - we knew what racism was in the 80s and 90s. Anyone saying racist things back then was doing so because they chose to, not out of ignorance or naivety.

BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand · 19/09/2021 10:29

@NotDavidTennant

It depends a bit on your perspective. Kurt's views were probably not that excetiopnal within the alternative music scene, but the alternative music scene at the time was vastly more progressive than mainstream culture.

Remember that when Nirvana started out Regan was still in power in the US and Thatcher in power over here. Rock music in the late 80s reflected tha values of that time with lots of celebration of machismo and indvidualistic hedonism. The alternative rock movement that Nirvana spearheaded into the mainstrem was a reaction against that culture in favour of a view of the word that was more progressive and socially aware.

You could equally say, in 30 years time:

"Remember that when [2020 band] started out Trump was still in power in the US and Boris Johnson in power over here."

And you could use that to make anti-racism seem ahead of its time in 2020.

The fact that world leaders are regressive doesn't tell you anything meaningful about whether a particular figure in pop culture is ahead of their time or not.

Nirvana need to be compared to their peers - other grunge bands from the early 90s. In that peer group, progressive views were not uncommon, although they were a step ahead of some of the macho bands of the 80s.

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 10:31

I do think Courtney rubs people up the wrong way. Have you seen the Babes in Toyland Bruise Violet video?

I haven’t, actually. I might check it out.
I know I am being ridiculous but I can’t quite bring myself to listen to any of her music either. I can’t stand watching her being interviewed etc - but in doing that I suppose I’m not giving myself enough information to form a balanced view on her.

I dunno. She seems like a complete fantasist to me. Some of the things she has said seem so far-fetched that she comes across (to me) as a compulsive liar. I think that’s what I struggle with in her.

DGRossetti · 19/09/2021 10:33

we knew what racism was in the 80s and 90s.

not just the 1980s either. The 1880s too.

We've always known what racism is. The real test is whether we are bothered by it. And sadly - as with misogyny - we are sliding backwards into not being bothered by it any more.

Tal45 · 19/09/2021 10:33

I looked at one of his books - a journal or something - that was in an airbnb I stayed at. It was the biggest load of self indulgent nonsense I'd ever seen in my life, total load of bs crap.

BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand · 19/09/2021 10:34

A journal was self indulgent? Never!

BeenAsFarAsMercyAndGrand · 19/09/2021 10:36

He was far from a perfect person. I also like Love's music, and shes not perfect either.

Putting musicians (or actors etc.) on a pedestal is never a good idea. Humans are generally pretty flawed.

backtolifebacktoreality · 19/09/2021 10:36

Well I had that view then. What's so innovative about it?

ElizaDarcysDeeds · 19/09/2021 10:36

The liner notes and the principles weren't unusual and Kurt - in his attitude to women- wasn't progressive. As PPs have pointed out, the current younger generation are much more regressive. With their sexist stereotypes; porn culture and confusing social media for activism- they've rolled back so much.

VanGoSunflowers · 19/09/2021 10:38

@Tal45

I looked at one of his books - a journal or something - that was in an airbnb I stayed at. It was the biggest load of self indulgent nonsense I'd ever seen in my life, total load of bs crap.

Erm, it was a journal? Wasn’t written for public consumption…

OneTC · 19/09/2021 10:39

I don't think the world of the 90s was quite the regressive throwback that the current right-on crop think it was

He was reflecting widely held views rather than being leading the way

Janaih · 19/09/2021 10:44

I read a quote recently and unfortunately can't remember where so forgive my paraphrasing, saying the with the invention of the Internet it was assumed and hoped that the sharing of ideas and opinions would broaden minds, however all it has done is create an echo chamber of hate.

DGRossetti · 19/09/2021 10:45

As PPs have pointed out, the current younger generation are much more regressive. With their sexist stereotypes; porn culture and confusing social media for activism- they've rolled back so much.

All it takes for evil to triumph is that good people do nothing.

DGRossetti · 19/09/2021 10:46

@Janaih

I read a quote recently and unfortunately can't remember where so forgive my paraphrasing, saying the with the invention of the Internet it was assumed and hoped that the sharing of ideas and opinions would broaden minds, however all it has done is create an echo chamber of hate.

It's allowed thick people to easily find other thick people in a way preciously unknown.

Cocolapew · 19/09/2021 10:48

I had the misfortune of being backstage after a Nirvana gig, Kurt and Courtney were absolute fucking horrors. How they were able to parent fuck knows.
The gig was shit too, Teenage Fanclub stole the show

DrSbaitso · 19/09/2021 10:51

@Tal45

I looked at one of his books - a journal or something - that was in an airbnb I stayed at. It was the biggest load of self indulgent nonsense I'd ever seen in my life, total load of bs crap.

It was a private journal!

suckingonchillidogs · 19/09/2021 10:56

@Cocolapew

I had the misfortune of being backstage after a Nirvana gig, Kurt and Courtney were absolute fucking horrors. How they were able to parent fuck knows. The gig was shit too, Teenage Fanclub stole the show

Tell us more (please!)

EmeraldRaine · 19/09/2021 10:58

David Bowie, he was a pioneer.

Oh yeah he was a great guy, preying on child groupies.

BelleOfTheProvince · 19/09/2021 10:58

Assaulted his girlfriend.
Sexually abused a teenager.

Your woke standards are too low op.
Being a decent human being was expected in the 90s. It wasn't something you needed to broadcast with virtue signalling either.

ChequerBoard · 19/09/2021 11:01

No I really don't think Kurt was ahead of his time at all. He was very much of his time. Without doubt a hugely talented musician but a tortured soul from early on.

I watched the two programmes last night, both really interesting and very well done I thought. It was clear that Kurt harboured dark thoughts well before Nirvana ever made it big. The fax he sent to the Raincoats lead singer underlined that beautifully.

A truckload of hard drugs, the suffocating level of fame and adulation they achieved in a few short years and his toxic relationship with Courtney Love all piled on top of that melancholic nature was never going to end well.

I though Dave Grohl came across well, I'm always impressed by the articulate way he talks about things, and particularly the way he reflects on the past without going into details about certain events and sharing more than he thinks is right.

SleepOhHowIMissYou · 19/09/2021 11:06

@VanGoSunflowers

I do think Courtney rubs people up the wrong way. Have you seen the Babes in Toyland Bruise Violet video?

I haven’t, actually. I might check it out.
I know I am being ridiculous but I can’t quite bring myself to listen to any of her music either. I can’t stand watching her being interviewed etc - but in doing that I suppose I’m not giving myself enough information to form a balanced view on her.

I dunno. She seems like a complete fantasist to me. Some of the things she has said seem so far-fetched that she comes across (to me) as a compulsive liar. I think that’s what I struggle with in her.

Courtney's life is fantastic though, as in "remote of reality", at least in terms of the reality of everyday folk.

Most of us do not have a string of alternative rock icons as past lovers (Kurt is just one), a Hollywood career as an actress and our own musical success to boot.

Mixed with addiction, autism, your child being raised by your husband's family, then we're talking about a life less ordinary all round.

However, Courtney did have Harvey Weinstein's number, so there is something to be said about not recognising social norms after all...remember this is 12 years before the accusations about him came out. www.tmz.com/videos/0-ka2jzxot/

Cocolapew · 19/09/2021 11:08

@suckingonchillidogs it was the drugs, Kurt od'ed and ended up in hospital and Courtney was a shrieking, attention seeking, nasty piece of work. She was awful to fans that had gathered at the side door, promising they could come in if they gave her stuff then not allowing it. The stripey mohair jumper that Kurt used to wear was one she took of a young fan and then got security to chase him away.

ArseInTheCoOpWindow · 19/09/2021 11:10

Read an interesting thing aboubt Nirvana years ago. They were described as the Sex Pistols without the anger.

Never mind the Bollocks=angry
Never Mind=passive

Both sang about nihilism